Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

[saurav]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

"Knowledge" would include reading all over the internet about the multiple problems with these cards. This is far from new - in fact my first laptop install to an HP with a broadcom wifi card in 1999 introduced me to ndiswrapper. Every time I am asked to do an install to a system with a broadcom device, I research it before I install.

"Experience" would include the understanding that not all devices will work out-of-the-box because manufacturers do not often support linux. If you're planning on using linux, don't buy incompatible hardware and then complain when it doesn't work.

Hi...

However, the issues I'm speaking of (that are appearing on this forum) seem to be exclusively with 11.04. Whereas, with 10.04 and 10.10, they did not exist.

Regards...

I had pointed this out but everyone here said that regressions are unavoidable.

[ardvark71]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

I had pointed this out but everyone here said that regressions are unavoidable.

I think it would be wise to keep my lips zipped at this point.

Regards...

[oshunluvr]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

However, the issues I'm speaking of (that are appearing on this forum) seem to be exclusively with 11.04. Whereas, with 10.04 and 10.10, they did not exist.

Regards...

Good point. Although I suspect some of these problems are not new, they do seem to be mentioned more often currently than recently previous.

@saurav made a couple good points too.

I was thinking more generally about broadcom devices and not to the specific current issues. However, hardware like software is not static. Often the problems I had with my BCM4306 sound similar to recent postings, I doubt the hardware is the same as BCM430G or BCM4311 which are newer.

I suspect there will always be broadcom problems but that remains to be seen.

@ardvark71 - BTW, without spirited debate there won't be much gathering of "Knowledge" or "Experience." - Have at you!

[GreyGeek]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

On Sept 9, 2010 Broadcom released Open Source drivers for its Broadcom wireless devices.

Still, there are quite a few Broadcom devices that are still not supported by b43/b43legacy, nor by brcm80211. That is not the fault of KDE, Kubuntu, Canonical or Linux.

[perspectoff]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

Can we ever have an intelligent post? Geez.

[oshunluvr]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

Can we ever have an intelligent post? Geez.

Why don't you start the ball rolling with one?

[saurav]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

Still, there are quite a few Broadcom devices that are still not supported by b43/b43legacy, nor by brcm80211. That is not the fault of KDE, Kubuntu, Canonical or Linux.

Yes, many devices are not supported by the driver and that is definitely not the fault of FOSS, but the thing is, devices that worked with the Broadcom STA driver perfectly and without much to do on our part in previous releases of several distros now require us to go through much more hassle in the latest versions of the same distros. This may have something to do with lower level changes such as newer versions of the kernel, but I'm not sure.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

It is the same "Catch-22" the users of ATI video cards find themselves in. Say you have a Radeon 9700. The open source driver may or may not give adequate performance for acceleration. IF it doesn't you try the current release of Catalyst. The current release of Catalyst works with recent kernel releases. When you try to use the current version of Catalyst is says that your ATI card is "legacy" and the new version of Catalyst won't run it. So, you look up what version of Catalyst you are supposed to use, it's Catalyst 8.x, and then try to install it. The install stops immediately with "Wrong version of kernel" and won't proceed. Catch-22.

Solution? Older ATI chips means that the desktop is older too. Install a newer video peripheral card that the current Catalyst & kernel work with, or which gives better performance with the open source driver. Laptop? Life is hard.

[dibl]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

Can we ever have an intelligent post? Geez.

OK, I'll try one.

The question posed by saurav is a form of what the marketing folks call a "glittering generality". A glittering generality sounds impressive and significant, but actually doesn't say anything. For example:

"Every pie should be delicious." "All hardware items in the store half off." etc. etc.

The problem with glittering generalities is, they don't break down to give any specific information. Delicious to whom? Half off of what inflated, crazy original price?

Which is why this thread goes on and on and on attempting to define "perfect" to mean something that more than one person can agree upon.

So, I would say "YES", I can indeed have a perfect distro, for my hardware and my use case. Matter of fact, I have not one single complaint about the distro that is presently installed on this very computer. Whether you (the plural) can have a perfect distro is, of course, not something that anyone else (singular) can possibly know. 8)

[saurav]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

Although it has become rather tiring trying to explain my question countless times here, and although I don't know whether dibl wanted me to reply or not, I will attempt to do so yet again. The general response of this forum, though, has already answered my question partly.

The one thing that everyone appears to be overlooking is majority. Majority is when more than fifty percent of the population in question desires the same thing. If that amounts to actually saying nothing, I really cannot help it, but that is how it is, "glittering generality" or not. Given the definition of majority, the majority of laptop users I interact with have laptops that contain hardware requiring proprietary drivers because the majority of the laptops were bought at a time when freer alternatives were not available in the market here so there was no way to buy Linux-friendly laptops. The majority of these users are also not primarily involved with computers. They want systems that work without hassle.

Previous releases of all major distributions, particularly Ubuntu up to version 10.04, allowed these users to very easily use the proprietary drivers because the users did not have to do anything after installing the drivers. These earlier versions of the distributions and the software they included also did not cause any serious errors to occur on any of these laptops. Now, while the laptops and all their hardware have remained the same, the latest releases of all popular distributions, as well as GNOME and KDE, cause trouble for these users in exactly those areas by requiring them to go through many more cumbersome steps to install and use drivers and/or by causing serious errors (up to the level of kernel panics and data loss) to occur on those very same laptops. Therefore, no distribution intended for standard use should cause users to bear the brunt of these issues. This, then, is my "glittering generality."

[ardvark71]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

@ardvark71 - BTW, without spirited debate there won't be much gathering of "Knowledge" or "Experience." - Have at you!

Hi...

It can also create divisions, too, and that's something I want and need to be careful about. At the point I wrote about keeping my "lips zipped," I was not in a good frame of mind and I didn't want to say anything that would end up causing anger or hurting someone's feelings. At the same time I wanted to acknowledge saurav's post.

Regards...

[charles052]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

My apologies.

[de_koraco]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

Good grief, I thought this forum was safe from the ubuntuforums style whining.

[charles052]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

I understand completely what saurav is asking. I'm waiting for the perfect computer/distro combo myself. My Dell Inspiron 531 doesn't run anything very well. Even Kubuntu 10.04 has the occasional hiccup, but I believe it's as close to perfect as I'm going to get on this particular rig.

I don't think a perfect distro is nearly as achievable as long as you don't keep your hardware in mind. Manufacturers can, at times, do a terrible job of putting together a computer and it stinks when you happen to have that computer. Hardware is, as far as I'm concerned, the #1 reason why OS's and programs have such a hard being completely compatible due to various reasons from bad drivers, crappy design ,and crappy manufacturing. For instance, I just bought a Lite On DVD burner to burn videos. Before, my homemade videos would play in just about any DVD player after burning them with the factory burner. It crapped out on me and now, with the Lite On, they won't play in even half the players. Nothing's changed, not my programs, not my DVDs, just my burner.

In my case, I've had to stick with 10.04 due to some issues with upgrading (My 1st upgrade to 10.10 was a disaster and I had to reinstall 10.04 again). As much as I'd love to upgrade with each and every new release, my work comes 1st to my play, and I do love to play around with my computer. My personal belief is to take what you can get and enjoy it. That doesn't mean you can't point out the bugs and not have your voice heard, but do enjoy what you have til you can get something better.

I do think someday, there will be distros as close to perfect as we humans can make them. I think it's in the nature of Linux and the great programmers to keep making Linux better and better. If it wasn't for these hard working folks, I wouldn't have Linux now and enjoy it and immensely as I do.

Those are my thoughts.

[saurav]

Re: Can we ever have a perfect distro? A call to the community

@charles052: Exactly what I feel too.