Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

[cavedweller]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

If it comes down to KDE or Gnome I have always picked KDE. I am not a big fan of Ubuntu. If I use something that is Ubuntu based it is Mint or Kubuntu.

The current switch back to Kubuntu was because I bought my wife and I matching laptops installed with Windows 7 Home Premium. This amounted to unpack and grab one of the disro DVDs I had burned and linisize both of them to make them as headache free as possible. I grabbed my Kunbuntu 11.10 and installed it on both. I figure it would be a good choice for my wife who had not had any linux background until we got together. I wasn't willing so subject her to unity or Gnome 3 which I had run out of patients with.

The only issue we were having is a lot of erratic behavior out of the keyboards and touch pads. After a lot of Google time I didn't find anything that describing the same issues we were having. So I went back into my current collection of DVDs and reinstalled both with debian and kde. Upgraded them both to wheezy(testing) and they are running fine.

Neither system has muon on them, because I haven't taken the time to find an implementation of it to install on debian. I prefer to use a terminal and apt-get or aptitude anyway. I installed synaptic on both machines and am teaching my wife to use it for what she might want to install. I figure I will give it a couple of more months to of running the same environment as her, so I can see any issues she may have, and iron them out before implementing them on her system. Then I will strip mine back down and run it the way I like it.

I think at the end of the day the environment or distro used comes down to experience and personal preference. For the newbie either Gnome or KDE will function. The key is helping them to understand that in the linux world the Ultimate edition is not going to cost you a weeks wages, and updates are not limited to what the company gets around to releasing and service packs. Most non X users don't realize the toll that is taken on their systems because they are forced to run anti-virus and anti-spy and malware programs in the background.

I think that when the newbie shows up looking the questions ought to be.... What do you want your system to do? What are your primary uses of your system? How do you want it to look and function? Then it is our job to point them in the direction to have the best transitional experience and offer them a hand when needed. I get tired of hearing various experienced users on forums I belong to telling some frustrated newbie trying to find and answer, "That has been posted before, use the search feature." "Have you Googled that yet?" We need to always keep in mind that because we have a certain experience level, not all do. Kindness and a helping hand can do as much to impress the newcomer about their choice to change as the operating system itself.

OK off my soapbox.

[utherpendragonfly]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

I have been using Linux Mint for about three years, and Ubuntu for several months before that. I had installed Mint 12 on this machine recently and was getting used to Gnome 3 and all the great Mint extensions. But I started having problems - like suddenly the computer would not go into sleep mode; and system settings like Users and Groups seemed to have no options for configuring user priveleges; then I couldn't find the list of printer drivers which used to take about thirty seconds to set up. I guess I just got fed up with the reduced functionality of Gnome Shell, and having to mess around finding extensions and tweaks to make Gnome 3 work.
I installed Kununtu on this machine yesterday (after playing around with it and OpenSuse KDE for a while) and so far I am really thrilled!!

Kubuntu looks beautiful; the configuration options are all Gnome 2 was and more. I had a couple kinks that were quickly fixed thanks to this forum. The attention to detail in KDE 4.7 is marvelous! Even graphics look wonderful using the open source driver and I have no need to install the Nvidia proprietary driver. Everything works great and this OS is a joy to use!

Regarding Unity: I installed 11.10 on another computer a few months back. It's really not bad, especially for your average Windows user who doesn't change much on their system. But it was too simplistic for my taste. I think as time goes by Unity will develope into a nice basic OS.
And with Linux Mint: Cinnamon looks very promising, too. I bet by the Mint 13 release and beyond the user exerience will be much, much better. Clem and the crew are doing a great job making a DE that really wasn't ready for Prime Time yet (Gnome 3) into something much better.
But for now I'm loving Kubuntu and should have fun learning the differences in using and configuring KDE.

[Rod J]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

Well it certainly has driven me to try Kubuntu.

I've been an Ubuntu user since 8.04 (occasional at first, dual booting WinXP then I converted totally when 9.04 came out). My first experience with KDE was back with Mandrake about ten years ago and I wasn't that impressed with it back then. However, more recently I was hooked on Linux when I tried Ubuntu and I thought Gnome was great (for a time).

Then I installed Ubuntu 11.04 to have a look at Unity and what all the fuss was about. I tried to like Unity but I eventually gave up on it as it is so restricted in configuration. It's like using Windows XP all over again where you can't really change much of the look of the DE. One of the main things I like about the Linux environment is the choice you have to make the DE look as you want.

Anyway, long story short, I tried Kubuntu 11.04 and I really like it. KDE has come a long way since my first experience with it. I will be converting completely to Kubuntu when 12.04 comes out (my main OS is still Ubuntu 10.04). Actually, the more I use Kubuntu the more I like it so I may change before then!

[woodsmoke]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

Hi Rod3 and welcome to the forum!
Don't be a stranger!
woodsmoke

[cavedweller]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

In my humble opinion Gnome and KDE at this point are both coding alot more eye candy than actual usability. I figure that the reasoning behind it is to win over MS users and try and put something outhere that competes with OSX appearance and effects. Eargo the development of apps like the cairo-dock, avant windows navigator, spinning cubes and so on. Alot of people these days aren't power users and the effects and eye candy is what they see as inovation. Sad but true. To them it doesn't matter how it runs as long as it looks good doing it.

Sometimes the old KISS way of doing things is a very good aproach.

Fortunaely in KDE you can right click on the menu launcher in KDE and switch it back to classic menu view. Kill the garbage on the desktop, lock the widgets, turn off most of the effects and simplify the system back a bit.

In the Gnome 3 arena thanks to Clem and the Mint team you can install cinnamon, and dconf Editor. After that you will have a bottom panel with a menu, favorites, and power off and logout buttons. With dconf Editor you can disable and hide the annoying overview button in the top left corner. This will bring you back to an almost Gnome 2 session, and is much more user friendly than standard Gnome 3 or Unity. I have played with it uninstalling any reference to unity in synaptic with the exception of one lib file. Uninstalled Mint's Mate and all of compiz and it worked fine.

Not that this means much. It is just the way I see things.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

...
Actually, the more I use Kubuntu the more I like it so I may change before then!

I jumped onto it because I could configure KDE 1.0 beta to look and work almost exactly like Win95, and that prevented me from having to do a mental paradigm shift every time I switched from Win95 to Linux. As I began to spend more time with Linux than Windows I learned how to customize KDE to maximize my performance with it. Now, I pay little attention to my windows guest OS or dual boot because the only time I run them is to update them and the AV files. I keep them around just for the increasingly rare occasion where Linux doesn't work. And, except for niche software, which I rarely use, those occasions are becoming as rare as hen's teeth.

[Snowhog]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

I'm a Kubuntu 'fan' because, unlike Ubuntu (which is in no way a bad Linux OS - it is very good), Kubuntu allows the user much more control over how it looks and works. Setting controls, whether GUI or from the command line, are in greater numbers in Kubuntu than in Ubuntu, and I like that I can more easily tweak my system in Kubuntu. Tweaks in Ubuntu are possible, but they are far less intuitive or accessible.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

+1

(Wish we had a "+1" button which would reduce the "me too" msgs.)

[bsniadajewski]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

+1 to your +1, GG, as well as to Snowhog.

I like(d) KDE because of familarity (It looked like Windows in its default desktop UI, though I knew it wasn't when I first tried Mandrake at the time), and configurability (some say too much, not I though).

[SteveRiley]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

In my humble opinion Gnome and KDE at this point are both coding alot more eye candy than actual usability. I figure that the reasoning behind it is to win over MS users and try and put something outhere that competes with OSX appearance and effects. Eargo the development of apps like the cairo-dock, avant windows navigator, spinning cubes and so on. Alot of people these days aren't power users and the effects and eye candy is what they see as inovation. Sad but true. To them it doesn't matter how it runs as long as it looks good doing it.

A question out of curiosity, if I may... I read criticisms like this a lot. But why is it a problem? I'm not singling you out personally, cavedweller, so please don't misinterpret my statement as being directed toward you.

Modern PCs possess a lot of unused horsepower. Adding a bit of bling is easier and less taxing now than a few years ago. So why not do that, if it helps attract larger audiences to Linux? If we can make it easier for people to transition their existing Windows and Mac skills, then we're far more likely to grow our population.

Those of us who don't like the bling are generally skilled enough to disable it. GNOME 3 is an obvious exception, where the developers have decided (incorrectly, IMHO) to eliminate or hide customizability. But I'm still uncovering functionality and usability in KDE even as it composes a beautifully pleasing desktop to look at. So as long as there exists a DE where the blingy bits also come with right-click option menus, shouldn't we consider that to be all-around awesomesauce?

[cavedweller]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

Steve you haven't offended me or made me feel singled out. I am the VP of a motorcycle club and I am pretty thick skinned. I read your post yesterday and would have responded but my butt was dragging. I had a club meeting yesterday an hour and a half from where I live and came home to moving. Chances are that come March you will not see much of me on here again until next winter sometime. Anyway I will try and give you my view of what I said earlier. Hopefully it will help you understand what I said. That said here goes.

I probably look at this a little differently than you do. Like I said I am a biker. I have 2 Harleys downstairs in the shop. My bikes are not choppers or customs just a couple of baggers. The basic design hasn't changed in decades. The gas tanks still hold to the original design of the 30s, and my RoadKing has a head light the size of a locomotives. There's 100 plus years of refining that design. The changes that come are in improving the performance, but the look stays pretty traditional. What is funny is listening to weekend riders and posers gripe that Harley hasn't changed there basic design in decades, while they are sitting on there latest poor imatation trying to copy that look from overseas. In the end they are just that copies. It makes me smile when I am out especially with my wife and a older couple or idividual comes up, looks at one of my bikes and says, "Nice Harley." It is something they recognize, that brings back a memory. There is a familiarity they know.

That is just a picture I said to say this. In the computing world oppersting systems are much the same. Anybody that has been around this very long knows that Microsoft hasn't had an original idea from day one. They sit in Redmond and look at what is out there and see what they can copy and thn try to patten it claiming that it is there intelectual property and then the make it proprietary. They have been pretty successful at it to. We also know that when it comes down to the brass tax nix systems power the economic, information, and super computing highways not Microsoft. Their only claim to fame at this point is the desktop environment. We also know that in our opensource environment that when put to the test coders come up with some pretty rock solid applications and are able to adapt them quickly to meet the need. Freely shared information givrd you as larger pool of ideas and resouces to work from.

To me a computer is a tool. I use it to communicate with family and friends, look up information, and a few other things. I use it for specific purposes. Like the tools I buy to work on my bikes there is need and a purpose for that tool. I don't need a screw driver that doubles as a hex or torques wrench, or a drill that doubles a screwdriver. I just need a tool that was designed for the job at hand. The same is true when it comes to computing.

I understand the bling thing. In my circles it is understood that HD doesn't stand for Harley Davidson, it stands for hundred dollars and how many times you can multiply it. Bling is optional though not something that comes as a standard part of the bike. It isn't put on the bike and if you don't like it then you can take it off. If you want it you pay for it and put it on yourself, or pay someone else to do it. I kind of think that is how it ought to be in the desktop environments. If you can put a softwares ca manager on the system that is broken down by catagories then add a desktop enhacement catagory to it and let the individual pick and choose what they want. Don't put it on there and epect them to have enough experience to be able to spend a half our or so disabling it or removing it.

If you are wanting to convert people over to linux I think the way to do that is to work on enteroperability. There is nothing that pisses me off more than having to install a vm on my system or wine once a year just to do my taxes because the software that I use is windows based. So I do what I need to so I can install my tax software, do my taxes, and then take it all back off my system. It would be nicer if you could just put the disk in the drive install the program use it and be done with it.

OK, I have to get back to moving. Hope that gave you at least a little idea of where I was coming from.

[dequire]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

Cavedweller - That's a good analogy, and it's cool that you ride! I've always wanted one, but to live in Ohio makes the cost justification just something I could not swing. Maybe one day!

* However * - I would disagree slightly in the sense that to me, computers are a reflection of the latest technology. Every year they get faster, smaller, and much more powerful. In a few more years, you won't be able to buy a computer with a physical hard drive. My newly built Kubuntu PC has a graphics card with 1 Gigabyte of DDR5 ram. I have 4 cores running at 3.1 Ghz each. And this is just a reasonably-priced home build, not a high end gaming rig.

To me, beautifully flowing animations and some shiny things (as long as tastefully done and not done purely for the sake of self-indulgence) are a reflection of a polished environment and how far hardware has come in just a few years. Free software innovations most often come from young people. Believe me - I was at CampKDE a few years back in San Diego. At 40, I felt ancient. These are the coders and people writing all of the software that we use and love. And as a father of three boys who are all to one degree or another aspiring computer geeks, I believe that this demographic (the ones 18-30 yrs old and most likely to have the time, knowledge, and desire to contribute to KDE and free software) expect to see an OS (as well as programming languages and tools that are not, or at least do not look like) Win 98 or XP. The drive to improve and innovate versus using the same computing paradigms of the past is strong when deciding how to spend your voluntary time developing software.

But like you pointed out, a few tweaks and uncheck a few check boxes and you can turn Kubuntu into a really streamlined, classic looking (Read: Win XP) desktop in no time. I'll give an example: Over the years I have seen many people rail against Amarok for being overly complex. They say "all I want to do is play music, I have no need for Wikipedia, cover art, lyrics, etc. etc.". Ok understood. So they go spend hours trying every KDE and non-KDE replacement out there. They even go so far as to do things like try to run Winamp over WINE. I wonder if these people ever realized (maybe they need to be shown?) that with literally less than 5 mouse clicks and 1 screen-edge drag to resize the window, Amarok can go from this



to this

[cavedweller]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

dequire I hear what you are saying. I am mainly looking at this from this perspective to. While your system specs aren't top of the line you have to take into consideration that alot of beople are not running specs that high. The two laptops I bought before Christmas are Duo Core, 4 gb ram, 500 gb hd. For those like you that like the animations and effects great. I still say that it should be optional or in the system settings.

Case and point. Gnome 3. Out of the box it is a cunfusing, problematic piece of crap. You are also not able to do much to customize it. So installed you end up with alot of junk that causes people to ask questions like, "Is Gnome 3 pushing people to KDE?" If that question comes up the answer with the younger croud is, maybe. With a lot of harden gnome users it is, they are probably going to LMDE, XFCE, or Openbox. The only redeeming thing I have seen happen with Gnome 3 is Clem and the mint group great cinnamon to sit on top of it and take things back to a more familiar area. Then if you install dconf Editor you can disable and remove the annotying overview applet in the top left corner. I think Gnomes approach to this was a little to MS like. Kind of a there it is we will fix some of it down the road. Take also into consideration that there were alot of video issues with it especially with AMD/ATI and nvidia. When bringing this up in another forum I was told well mine works and there should be a fix in a month or two. Concidering that AMD/ATI is somewhere in the 30-40% market share when it comes to GPUs and then you throuw some nvidia in there, an environment that is problematic to 50-60% of the GPUs was thrown out there. I think the percentages were a little higher for being problematic with end users.

[craig10x]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

Clem is doing an outstanding job with the Cinnamon project...even though it doesn't have all the features and easy configuring menu (which it will in updated versions) it already "feels right" I have been using it for about 2 weeks now on my Mint 12 install and in fact it is the ONLY session i have been using (not gnome 3 shell, MGSE, MATE)...It looks good, it works well and as i said it just feels right...

He is doing what ubuntu did with unity but instead offering the more familiar and comfortable desktop many prefer...His approach seems to be the best and in fact there are many users of ubuntu, fedora, open suse and other distros already using it...which i think speaks volumes on how popular it has already become...

In addition, many nice appearance themes are being ported to it as well as optional extensions though most stuff will be hard coded into Cinnamon and will eventually be easily configured from a cinnamon configuration menu...

I think there is a good chance that it will beat out both Unity and Gnome 3's version of the shell (with or without extensions)...for easy use, stability and easy configuring...

Sorry to have to disagree with one of the previous comments....but in my opinion, gnome 3 is hardly a "piece of crap" particularly with Cinnamon....in fact, it is EXACTLY what gnome3 needed

[woodsmoke]

Re: Is Unity driving its Ubuntu users towards kubuntu?

Re the above few exchanges about

a) "being locked into an interface"
b) being able to change for the user
c) "ease or difficulty" of changing things.

One might look at the "Exclusive Software" (middle panel) of Zorin's page, to wit:

***************
Exclusive Software

Zorin OS features our unique Look Changer program that we have created exclusively for Zorin OS. It allows users to change the user interface at the touch of a button. Other unique programs include Splash Screen Manager, Internet Browser Manager and Background Plus.

***************

And, one might also note the rather impressive "changing" graphic at the top of the page which can really slow down your browser, so I would recommend quickly scrolling down to the panels if one is on a slow dialup.

http://zorin-os.com/

woodsmoke