Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

[PhilT]

Carla Scroder posted this appeal. Maybe we should all chuck a bit of support money in the PayPal bucket except that PayPal has blotted its copybook by refusing to allow money to go to WikiLeaks and if we publicise Groklaw too much maybe they'll try to shut her down too? Big business doesn't like the truth being told!!

http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/7253/1/

[GreyGeek]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

JP's reply is WELL WORTH reading.

But I love using the GNU/Linux operating system, and I'm offended by the scurrilous attacks on it. So, how to help Linux survive the rape and pillage the forces behind SCO intended when there are folks in the community doing such harm, whether intentional or not?

Is it intentional? Or does the heart find ways to justify what people want to do because they personally benefit? I leave that part to God. I can't read hearts. I analyze behavior only. But I see results. It's depressing to find out that community members are so easy to buy off, which is how I view it.

But, there we are. They are. And let's face it. There has always been a segment of the community who thought getting business involved in FOSS would be a good thing, even if some compromise had to make it possible. In some ways, it has been helpful, but in others, it's the problem. If there is one thing that covering the legal news for the FOSS community for nearly a decade has taught me, it's that most corporations in the IT field are a teensy bit disgusting, don't you agree? So when they join the community or at least seem to, they bring their ugly baggage with them, their way of approaching things. It's not the community's way at all. Novell is Exhibit A, and they aren't even the worst. Wall Street seems to have no ethics that I can discern. They seem to be willing to destroy anything if there's money in it, including the entire world's economy for their own short-term benefit, so why am I surprised? Being a public company means you have to deal with Wall Street, after all, and they are the way they are, so it no doubt was a complicated situation for Novell once Elliott made a play. Was Microsoft behind that too? Other dark forces? I don't know. But would it surprise you?
...
So the fundamental question facing us is, now what? Is it worth bothering to do Groklaw?
...
I didn't start Groklaw to get anything personally. I don't do it for money. I don't do it for fame. I do it to be effective. I saw a wrong, and wanted to help. If others misbehave, what is that to me? I didn't start Groklaw to cover SCO, after all. It was just a perfect case to use to show you how the law works, and that was my goal, so that geeks can help when cases come up where technical knowledge can help get things right.

So I'm going to keep going.

So, there you have it. How many cases of corporate rape of FOSS can you recall? The most recent is the NoMachine VPN which, after several years of using open source to develop and test their product, took it PROPRIETARY last week. Then there was BitKeeper, AVG, OpenSolaris (sort of), Symbian, EtherPad, Snort, the train software, and many others. Even Apple exploited BSD, FreeBSD, GCC, Konqueror and the free help of a LOT OF FOSS developers to create OS X. They were led to believe that their contributions would lead to a FOSS version of the Apple's OS. GNU-Darwin is not even similar to OS X.

[woodsmoke]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

I had a sig at Xandros many years back: "Live Free or Die". And was told in a very "sniffy" tone that it was a bit "overmuch". The same guy stayed there till the end, or at least I think so.

So...what can "we" do....not much really, we are not the "movers and shakers"....but... we can carry our lappies to the coffee shop or library with a really spectacular visually, and relatively useless, window manager that anybody walking by can see and we can talk about it.

We can carry live cds with a single sheet of paper explaining dual boot and how to go to a forum.

We can put bumper stickers on our cars or wear a t-shirt with not necessarily a "cool" logo but a LOUD logo like...........USE LINUX - millions do! or something that anybody can see.

We can donate to SOMA FM, we can donate to GrokLaw, we can donate to Kubuntu or another distro, or to something like Linux Journal

If every single Kubu user dontated one dollar USD the devs would have heart attacks and be in the hospital but then after they got out ... think what the NEXT Kubu would be like....oh.....myyyyyy.....gaaawwwwddd

Not that they aren't doing a great job now, but the money would maybe pay for some extra programming help or more server space...

How much do we "save" by not buying windows software...donate one fifth of what has been saved...one donation can change a person's mind.

I asked what to look for in a new hire when I hired on as a personnell man in a factory and was told by the manager ...to look for the kind of person ......."who punches the time clock every day".....yes the "brilliant flash in the pan" may run a boxload of parts one day but be gone the next day and somebody has to take over and not do their original job...

So....just punching that time clock... and all those thousands of worker ants may prevail yet.

Jut my thoughts and I'm stickin' to 'em!!

woodsmoke

[dibl]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

A couple of observations (I don't get real emotional about these ideological wars, which are essentially the modern equivalent of religious warfare, without the physical spears and swords):

- shareholder corporations exist to provide some useful service or product to society, and thereby to return a profit to their shareholders. They don't exist to provide reliable news, nor to be society's best example of ethics in practice

- for any corporation that ceases to provide a useful service or product, the market will provide the consequences, albeit not instantaneously (e.g. Digital Equipment Corporation, Commodore Business Machines, CPT Corp., etc. etc.)

- we have religion(s) to provide moral guidance, and examples of ethical conduct

- we have laws to set limits on unethical/immoral behavior of individuals and organizations (e.g. "Truth In Advertising" in the U.S.)

- if shareholder corporations find it helpful to their purpose (see #1 above) to participate in the FOSS community, in some way, then they certainly will do so

- for individuals, as well as organizations of all kinds, you can have a lot more confidence in assessing their intentions by evaluating their conduct, rather than their spoken statements. Thus PJ finds today's conduct more convincing, versus the verbiage of these companies' prior assurances. She's right.

Today's two cents' worth .... and a bargain I'm sure!

[PhilT]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

Jeepers GG!! - I never realised so many FOSS projects have "sold out". But, thank Goodness there are still some who work for the common good and future freedom. I knew Mac OS was really stolen open source code, though.
I agree with woodsmoke : I wear a Kubuntu T-shirt and continually bore neighbours and friends with "Linux is better stories". Several have tried Kubuntu and stuck with it. We should all chuck some money in the community pots from time to time (I actually do, reasonably regularly).
In my village is a small computer repair shop/store and I'm always trying to get the proprietor to support Linux as well as Windows (I've offered to go in and help him for nothing). He says though, that although he recognises Linux superiority he makes his living fixing/repairing/upgrading Windows boxes. BUT, just last week he honked his horn to get my attention, pulled his car over, wound down his window and said : "I thought about you last week. You never guess what! I sold my first Linux notepad last week." He laughed his socks off and drove away. Small success!!

[woodsmoke]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

yep,
poco a poco se va lejos!

woodsmoke

[GreyGeek]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

.....
- shareholder corporations exist to provide some useful service or product to society, and thereby to return a profit to their shareholders. They don't exist to provide reliable news, nor to be society's best example of ethics in practice

Useful to society? 40 Million people without health insurance is an useful service? Detroit continues to produce cars that get 20 mpg when warnings of the pending fossil fuel shortages have been sounded for 40 years and is now upon us? The Cable & Telcos take $200 Billion from Congress to establish 40Gb/s fiber optic internet, but merely pocket the money when congress failed to include punishments for noncompliance in the enabling legislation is useful in what way? 15 years later the FCC gives the Telcos the right to give packets unequal treatment. That corporations are rarely held accountable for the ethics or actions is one reason why they threaten our Republic.

- for any corporation that ceases to provide a useful service or product, the market will provide the consequences, albeit not instantaneously (e.g. Digital Equipment Corporation, Commodore Business Machines, CPT Corp., etc. etc.)

It has been my experience that, especially in the computer market, what is useful or better usually fails to compete against corporations that promote the poorer product using accounting tricks, promo lies, slanted playing fields, and political buy offs. Many examples come to mind: BEOS or Linux vs Windows, to name one.

- we have religion(s) to provide moral guidance, and examples of ethical conduct

From stoning women for being raped and cutting dissidents throats, through pedophile priests, down to preachers who use contributions to buy jets, bra factories and sex services, organized religion has become the dictionary example of hypocrisy. Most provide nothing more than lip service in the way of moral guidance or ethical conduct.

- we have laws to set limits on unethical/immoral behavior of individuals and organizations (e.g. "Truth In Advertising" in the U.S.)

You're joking, right?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=corporate+lies
And, they had good teachers ... our politicians...

- if shareholder corporations find it helpful to their purpose (see #1 above) to participate in the FOSS community, in some way, then they certainly will do so

It seems that "helpfulness" is, for many, a one way street. This is why the 4 Freedoms of the GPL, as opposed to any other "free" license, is so important.

The following website has some interesting history on corporations in America.
http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/corp...ations_us.html
And, it turns out, corporations achieved "person-hood" 100 years AFTER the formation of our country by using an underhanded trick, but a trick used frequently today by unscrupulous corporations at the national level. It seems if you want a special favor all you have to do is include it in the bill during the middle of the night, prior to the day on which it is voted upon, by politicians who never read it anyway.

- for individuals, as well as organizations of all kinds, you can have a lot more confidence in assessing their intentions by evaluating their conduct, rather than their spoken statements. Thus PJ finds today's conduct more convincing, versus the verbiage of these companies' prior assurances. She's right.

What they do always trumps what they say. (corporations or people)

[dibl]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

Heh -- great comeback, GG. I expected nothing less!

OK, while I rarely engage in online arguing (normally finding it a 100.0% waste of time), I like your constructive approach, so I'll take one last swing at it.

Useful to society? 40 Million people without health insurance is an useful service? Detroit continues to produce cars that get 20 mpg when warnings of the pending fossil fuel shortages have been sounded for 40 years and is now upon us? The Cable & Telcos take $200 Billion from Congress to establish 40Gb/s fiber optic internet, but merely pocket the money when congress failed to include punishments for noncompliance in the enabling legislation is useful in what way? 15 years later the FCC gives the Telcos the right to give packets unequal treatment. That corporations are rarely held accountable for the ethics or actions is one reason why they threaten our Republic.

We could have a side debate on the question of whether insurance is even an appropriate means by which to deliver medical care -- I'm of the strong and long opinion that it makes no more sense than grocery insurance. Medical insurance was invented in the 1940s, for particular reasons, and was offered as "Major Medical", meaning it covered only serious hospitalizations. It has subsequently evolved into the goofy dysfunctional system we see today. I won't defend it for 1 second, but I will note that the insurance corporations have mainly sought to deliver the insurance demanded by the market, and have only survived because the market was willing to pay the premiums to have the product. The fact that 100% of the population can't afford the product is not the fault of the corporations, any more than the fact that I can't afford a Lamborghini is Lamborghini's fault.

From stoning women for being raped and cutting dissidents throats, through pedophile priests, down to preachers who use contributions to buy jets, bra factories and sex services, organized religion has become the dictionary example of hypocrisy. Most provide nothing more than lip service in the way of moral guidance or ethical conduct.

I didn't say religious guidance was followed -- of course most of the worst atrocities of the past 2000 years were committed in the name of religion. I merely noted that moral guidance in most societies is rooted in the "book" that they claim to follow. The law doesn't tell us we have to speak the truth, does it? That's why you have to hold up your hand and swear to God, in court, before you testify.

You're joking, right?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=corporate+lies
And, they had good teachers ... our politicians...

No, what I'm saying is, corporations (along with other organization like universities, nonprofits, and governmental organizations) are only constrained by the laws that apply to them. "Truth In Advertising" is a U.S. law that governs the degree to which advertisements can be untruthful about a product or service. I'm not claiming that it is perfectly enforced -- it certainly isn't. But it is the law, it does provide for consequences, and that type of law -- as an example (there are many others), is the only constraint on the "speech" of corporations. There's no reasonable basis to expect organizations to adhere to some moral or ethical behavior that exceeds the requirements of law, even if we as individuals find reason to hold ourselves to some higher principles.

It seems that "helpfulness" is, for many, a one way street. This is why the 4 Freedoms of the GPL, as opposed to any other "free" license, is so important.

I think we're probably in violent agreement on that point. But, if you give stuff away .... it's a little hard to be outraged when someone actually takes it and runs. :P

[GreyGeek]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

....
I think we're probably in violent agreement on that point. But, if you give stuff away .... it's a little hard to be outraged when someone actually takes it and runs. :P
....

It's not that some "take it and run", it's that they fail to observe the GPL license by giving the source to any who ask for it for the changes they make public. This is only the latest example, but every case the FSF has prosecuted they have won.

[Ole Juul]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

....
I think we're probably in violent agreement on that point. But, if you give stuff away .... it's a little hard to be outraged when someone actually takes it and runs. :P
....

It's not that some "take it and run", it's that they fail to observe the GPL license by giving the source to any who ask for it for the changes they make public. This is only the latest example, but every case the FSF has prosecuted they have won.

I would clarify this by saying that it is incorrect to just say that "you give stuff away"because there is a second part which says "in return for". This is after all a contractual agreement. Yes, there is no physical constraint, but even that would not change the concepts here. I've known people who don't think that a store window is a sufficient barrier to "sharing". Because it doesn't actually physically stop them, and windows are not a particular interest of their's, they think it is okay to break it. Everybody draws the line at a different place depending on their philosophy of life or tolerance for adversity. In the end it comes down to the individual, or corporation's, ability to uphold a contract, written or otherwise. In the case of the GPL it is a written contract.

[dibl]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

In the end it comes down to the individual, or corporation's, ability to uphold a contract, written or otherwise. In the case of the GPL it is a written contract.

Fair enough. In the U.S., contracts (to the extent they are found valid) are enforceable by the parties, in an appropriate court. So, no problem -- the party who was damaged by a breach merely needs to bring the suit, and show the evidence, and the contract will be enforced against the breacher.

[MoonRise]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

Just my observation here but that is where it starts to fall apart for GPL. There isn't the financial backing that large Corporations have to try and protect that which the GPL gives us. It all comes down to money in everything. Why do you see what is going on with things with FOSS, Open Source software? Money. Greed. Simple as that. No law or contract will protect from that when there is no one to defend against it. Corruption is rampant and has been from day 1. The CHAOS theory? I've always liked making that analogy to how society has always been. My measly .5 cent!

[dibl]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

From personal experience, most large corporations do NOT want to be exposed to a breach of GPL (or any other license) lawsuit -- it is a risk of financial loss that is not easy to quantify, and potentially expensive to defend. I was involved in the sale of a 100-employee company to a 50,000-employee corporation, and we had to dig up every applicable license we ever had used, including the GPL, and demonstrate that we were not in violation of any of the terms. Two Boston attorneys spent days reviewing our stuff, to make sure they weren't bringing aboard risk in the acquisition.

Subsequently, the large owner has required periodic mandatory training of all employees on the subject of respecting licenses, copyrights, and trademarks, trying to minimize the risk of violations.

My impression is that the organizations most likely to breach a license are the small and/or marginal ones, which either don't know any better or don't have a lot to lose from a violation. In other words, they're 2 payrolls from bankruptcy anyway, so they'll take the risk.

[kyonides]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

From stoning women for being raped and cutting dissidents throats, through pedophile priests, down to preachers who use contributions to buy jets, bra factories and sex services, organized religion has become the dictionary example of hypocrisy. Most provide nothing more than lip service in the way of moral guidance or ethical conduct.

I didn't say religious guidance was followed -- of course most of the worst atrocities of the past 2000 years were committed in the name of religion. I merely noted that moral guidance in most societies is rooted in the "book" that they claim to follow. The law doesn't tell us we have to speak the truth, does it? That's why you have to hold up your hand and swear to God, in court, before you testify.

Actually, I think that corporations can be so mean as to pollute a whole gulf just because they wanted to spare some cents in oil ducts safety. Oh wait! I remembered there's some enterprise called BP and they polluted the gulf of Mexico, yeah, I thought I was just too paranoic.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Dear PJ: Please Don't Quit Groklaw

...
Actually, I think that corporations can be so mean as to pollute a whole gulf just because they wanted to spare some cents in oil ducts safety.
...

IIRC, it was upper level management who demanded ENGINEERS to bypass safety protocols to "save time", just like it was upper level management who overrode ENGINEERS and launch guidelines on frozen seals and ordered the launch of the Challenger Space Shuttle, to "save money".

Once the pollution began, at about 86,000 bbls/day, BP decided that they'd turn a lemon into Lemonade. Of all the oil dispersants available on the market, CoreExit (both kinds) were the MOST expensive AND the LEAST effective. Also, they were the most toxic, at 2.6 ppm they killed all aquatic life. That helps to explain this. The heart and soule of BP is demonstrated by the fact that they were buying CoreExit because it was from one of their subsidiaries, so they made a profit on "cleaning up" the Gulf.