The cost of software

[Ole Juul]

I run FOSS, but could I afford to run MS-Windows even if I wanted to?

Linux, and other FOSS, is available for free. That is an important factor for me. I like to play with computers and generally have a dozen or so loaded with some OS or other. Could I afford to play round like this if I were to use Microsoft Windows?

I don't know what the different Microsoft components cost, but I think that to play around at home, like I do, would require buying quite a few different licenses. Since I am mostly ignorant of the Microsoft software world, I am wondering what other people know about this or have experienced.

Here are my basic needs and what I have come to expect for free:

A dozen, or more, copies of the basic OS. Quality CD/DVD writing software, image manipulation software, and some other programs to take care of things like word processing, and PDF document generation.

I also expect to run a PPP server so I can connect vintage equipment which only has serial output. In other words, I need basic ISP capability. FTP, HTTP, SSH, and other servers need to be available on all machines. From what I can see, that will require Server 2008 since Win7 does not do even such basic networking as pppd. I see that Windows Server requires Super VGA and a DVD drive so I might need additional software to overcome those shortcomings since I use older (free) equipment. Other servers which I must have are PHP and SQL. A dozen copies of each will probably be enough, but I'd make do with half as many if they charge for them.

Like I said at the beginning, I don't know what is available for free, or what is included when you buy Windows operating systems, but my guess is that I will require 12 copies of most of the following:

Windows 7
Windows Server
SQL Server
Microsoft Office (with pdf support)
A few other programs will probably also be required in order to make the experience functionally comparable to Linux

How much does that cost? Is $5,000 enough? My point here is that I like to play with computers. I am also on an extremely limited income. If the above is going to cost more than $200 then I'm out of the game. Free is better.

[oshunluvr]

Re: The cost of software

I'm not on a limited income. In fact - to make the point, I make more than $250,000 a year. I have been a strictly linux user for 8 years.

When asked for a donation to my currently preferred linux flavor and when a commercial piece of software for linux comes available, I buy it. If kubuntu goes commercial, I will buy it - and I will buy a copy for Ole Juul.

I will NEVER use that windows POC again.

[wizard10000]

Re: The cost of software

Bloggish, but -

I manage helpdesk and Tier 2 desktop support for a 3,300 user federal agency. One argument that Linux evangelists bring to the party is the cost of software - which in a large enterprise is really inconsequential. Hardware and software costs generally make up about 15% of an IT budget - the remaining cost is people. What really stops me from trying to migrate to Linux on an enterprise level is the cost of migration, not the cost of sustainment - but I digress.

I'd been dabbling in Linux for a lot of years, hosting my own domain from the house with my own LAMP stack. When Windows Vista and Office 2007 came out I decided I wasn't playing any more and switched to Linux full time at the house - and haven't looked back. Considering that I'm a former Microsoft MVP and spent a few years as one of the core 500 beta testers for Microsoft Games it was a pretty big switch for me - and one of the perks I used to get as an MVP was an MSDN Universal subscription, which meant I paid zero for Microsoft software.

I like being able to just grab anything I need rather than purchasing it. I do understand as do a lot of people here that the Linux community needs us to participate if that community is going to thrive, so that means sharing what little knowledge I have, filing bug reports and making sure that what I bring to the table is more than what I take from it.

There was a time when I didn't have enough knowledge to help anybody and the people who helped me were extremely patient with this particular Linux n00b, even when I asked some pretty stupid questions. For me it's more about the sense of community than the price of admission - I participate here and in one other Linux forum, answer Linux questions on my own forum and generally try to give back all the things that have been given to me.

Like oshunluvr I make enough to pay the Microsoft tax - but there's something more going on here than just the cost of software and that's what keeps me coming back.

[aqeeliz]

Re: The cost of software

Like I said at the beginning, I don't know what is available for free, or what is included when you buy Windows operating systems, but my guess is that I will require 12 copies of most of the following:

Windows 7
Windows Server
SQL Server
Microsoft Office (with pdf support)
A few other programs will probably also be required in order to make the experience functionally comparable to Linux

How much does that cost? Is $5,000 enough? My point here is that I like to play with computers. I am also on an extremely limited income. If the above is going to cost more than $200 then I'm out of the game. Free is better.

You are asking if $5,000 are enough, and then you are saying you can't afford these software if it costs more than $200?

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/buy/windows-7.aspx - According to this, the cheapest version of Windows 7 costs $199, but if you really like to play with stuff, you would probably want the Ultimate version (I'm not really sure of the difference as I don't use it myself), which costs $319. I don't know much about Windows licensing, but I don't think you are allowed to have 12 copies of it, you might need another license.

Windows does not come with Office, or any good image manipulation software. If you are looking for something like Gimp, then you want Adobe Photoshop. According to MS Office's website http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/buy/ it costs $279 (though student version, without Outlook costs $150, there is also a $500 version with Publisher but I've no idea what that is). Photoshop costs $659. But if you only want to try windows, you can always install Gimp and OpenOffice on windows.

I've never used Windows Server or SQL server so don't know much about them.

[Detonate]

Re: The cost of software

I do volunteer work for a non-profit organization that provides free income tax preparation and filing for elderly and low income taxpayers. I am the technology coordinator for my district. The tax preparation software they use only runs on windows. One problem we had was our need to network more than 10 computers. In XP, you are limited to 10 connections. Any more than that requires Windows server edition. Not only do you have to purchase the server edition, but you must also pay a per workstation fee. I forget the exact figures, but the costs were prohibitive for us. I spent many hours trying to figure a workaround for this limitation, but was unable to do so. At this time, the problem has been somewhat alleviated by moving to W7, which allows 20 connections, and that meets our needs. If one of our sites should require more than 20 in the future, I don't know how they will handle it. Another thing that has really helped is, that for my sites that have a secure (no wireless) broadband connection, we now have an online capability with the tax preparation software. That has solved a lot of problems. Mainly it has reduced my workload as I no longer have to install the software on 30+ different computers an install the updates on each on an almost daily basis during tax season. We still have to run Windows because the online version only works with IE.

[dibl]

Re: The cost of software

You don't need to buy image processing software -- gimp is available for Windows at the same price as for Linux.

Likewise OpenOffice (now/next Libre). You only need MS Office if you require 100% compatibility with someone else with whom you need to share appointments, contacts, PowerPoint files, etc.

The IE issue that Detonate mentioned is a real bug-bear -- I have that problem too, kinda. My employer (an aerospace giant) uses something called "Juniper Networks" as part of the secure log-in process for external connections to their network (along with RSA keys). Juniper frequently requires you to accept an .exe file for updating the remote system -- thereby guaranteeing that the remote system can't be a Linux system.

Unless ........ the remote is a Linux host running a Windows VM.

So, that's how I deal with it.

[wizard10000]

Re: The cost of software

Juniper frequently requires you to accept an .exe file for updating the remote system -- thereby guaranteeing that the remote system can't be a Linux system.

Juniper has a Linux client - I work for an agency under DoD and have connected to the work VPN server with my netbook.

[dibl]

Re: The cost of software

Juniper has a Linux client - I work for an agency under DoD and have connected to the work VPN server with my netbook.

Yeah, well, my employer is so deep in the pocket of MS that someone would probably be fired at the mere suggestion of allowing an external Linux system to hook up. :-X

[wizard10000]

Re: The cost of software

Yeah, well, my employer is so deep in the pocket of MS that someone would probably be fired at the mere suggestion of allowing an external Linux system to hook up. :-X

So is mine :-X

I had to set up my netbook to use a DoD Common Access Card and install the proper Firefox plugins - you have to be root to install the Juniper client and I got far enough in to get the client installed and prompted for a login before I decided that it'd cause a rather large security incident for me to go any farther

[dibl]

Re: The cost of software

I got far enough in to get the client installed and prompted for a login before I decided that it'd cause a rather large security incident for me to go any farther

Prior to the adoption of Juniper, it was possible to use the "personality" feature of Firefox to convince the server that it was IE calling. But once I discovered how easy it is with Windows on a VM, I stopped wasting time on end-running the IT department.

You are correct -- getting caught hacking in to a DOD contractor is not a career-enhancing move! :P

[zlow]

Re: The cost of software

I had to set up my netbook to use a DoD Common Access Card and install the proper Firefox plugins -

Wait, you are using your DoD CAC on a non DoD issue machine to connect to a DoD network?

[zlow]

Re: The cost of software

I run FOSS, but could I afford to run MS-Windows even if I wanted to?

Linux, and other FOSS, is available for free. That is an important factor for me. I like to play with computers and generally have a dozen or so loaded with some OS or other. Could I afford to play round like this if I were to use Microsoft Windows?

I don't know what the different Microsoft components cost, but I think that to play around at home, like I do, would require buying quite a few different licenses. Since I am mostly ignorant of the Microsoft software world, I am wondering what other people know about this or have experienced.

Here are my basic needs and what I have come to expect for free:

A dozen, or more, copies of the basic OS. Quality CD/DVD writing software, image manipulation software, and some other programs to take care of things like word processing, and PDF document generation.

I also expect to run a PPP server so I can connect vintage equipment which only has serial output. In other words, I need basic ISP capability. FTP, HTTP, SSH, and other servers need to be available on all machines. From what I can see, that will require Server 2008 since Win7 does not do even such basic networking as pppd. I see that Windows Server requires Super VGA and a DVD drive so I might need additional software to overcome those shortcomings since I use older (free) equipment. Other servers which I must have are PHP and SQL. A dozen copies of each will probably be enough, but I'd make do with half as many if they charge for them.

Like I said at the beginning, I don't know what is available for free, or what is included when you buy Windows operating systems, but my guess is that I will require 12 copies of most of the following:

Windows 7
Windows Server
SQL Server
Microsoft Office (with pdf support)
A few other programs will probably also be required in order to make the experience functionally comparable to Linux

How much does that cost? Is $5,000 enough? My point here is that I like to play with computers. I am also on an extremely limited income. If the above is going to cost more than $200 then I'm out of the game. Free is better.

Are you just playing and don't plan on using the licenses for anything but playing? Sounds like you need Technet which is $199 and gives access to everything that they make for testing purposes.

[wizard10000]

Re: The cost of software

Wait, you are using your DoD CAC on a non DoD issue machine to connect to a DoD network?

Yup. Did it right in front of an IA tech to demonstrate to him that Juniper only authenticated the user - not the machine. I can use a non-DoD machine and a CAC to access Outlook Web Access without breaking any of the rules, but using it to access the network directly is a no-no.

[Ole Juul]

Re: The cost of software

You are asking if $5,000 are enough, and then you are saying you can't afford these software if it costs more than $200?

Certainly! The point of this thread is to not just for me to learn what things cost in the MS world, but to show just how (likely) unaffordable it is for a hobbyist and why Linux is a good choice. I have yet to see a Windows user who plays around with computers on an amateur level who does not pirate stuff left right and centre. At least it looks like they don't buy anything whenever they install an OS on a new computer. Perhaps I'm missing something. Anyway, I solved my own moral dilemma (and many other problems) by using Linux. Personally, I don't think that the above would be worth $5000, and under $200 would be more realistic.

A very important point regarding price, is that Linux does networking. Windows is limited in that respect. An example would be connecting various computers to the internet. Many machines don't have network cards and getting one generally is out of the question because, even when a new card would be a solution, it would add $15 to the price of something which is supposed to cost nothing. Many machines also don't have a slot for a card, which would require an uncommon and slightly pricey external parallel to to Rj45 adaptor. Also 8 bit cards can be hard to find now. The solution is to use the serial bus which used to be king and is available on everything which is older. So in Linux, on the host machine one types "pppd -detach crtscts lock <local IP>:<remote IP> /dev/ttyS3 38400 &". Then you change /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward to a "1" and you're now a dialup ISP. It's as simple as that. IOW, connecting to a serial port on that machine, puts you on the internet. This is a simple solution with a networking OS like Linux. With Windows, in order to run a simple little program like pppd it looks like one has to buy Windows Server. (BTW, I can run pppd on a 360K floppy in DOS.) I was not able to find the price of Windows Server before, but I now see one site which charges from $400 to $6000 depending on the version. Presumably the $400 version would be enough to run pppd. I certainly hope so! However, one never knows, because they are already charging a lot of money for what I can do for free, so who knows how far they would go?

[zlow]

Re: The cost of software

Wait, you are using your DoD CAC on a non DoD issue machine to connect to a DoD network?

Yup. Did it right in front of an IA tech to demonstrate to him that Juniper only authenticated the user - not the machine. I can use a non-DoD machine and a CAC to access Outlook Web Access without breaking any of the rules, but using it to access the network directly is a no-no.

Fair enough, that's not what it sounded like you were doing before.