Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop FOSS in Europe - and errata too!

[dibl]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

nothing like a good old discussion to get things out in the open

That is very true -- no debate available on that point!

We (USA) learned on 11 SEP 2001 that there exists a group (or confederation) with the will and the means to launch very destructive attacks against our civilian population and infrastructure. Hopefully we don't have a disagreement on that point.

If that is accepted, then I hope it's also reasonable that our nation, via our democratically elected government, are entitled to take all reasonable precautions in defense of ourselves, against the terrorists who plot against us.

That's all. Just accept that much, and I believe the rest of the wikileaks "expose" will fall into proper perspective. There's a lot that isn't known, and I don't claim to know any more than you can read on CNN. We will wait, and learn a lot more, I'm sure.

[toad]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

Of course that is accepted - and what a terrible tragedy it was. But it must not serve as a blanket excuse to curtail the rights of others.

[dibl]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

But it must not serve as a blanket excuse to curtail the rights of others.

Put that way, it's hard to argue. "Rights" is such a "glittering generality" when we toss it around, as though it means something specific. It doesn't, really. We in USA have the Bill of Rights, the specific listing of the rights of citizens that may not be infringed upon by our Government -- it was adopted in response to the outrages suffered by the American colonists under the British crown in the 18th century. Most other "rights" that people talk about are more or less "presumed" - found by courts, like privacy, or implied by common law, like the right to travel around the country. But of lot of what you hear described as "rights" are really privileges, or commercial arrangements, like your "right" to be a VISA customer. I just checked my copy of the Constitution -- there's no right to be a VISA customer.

[toad]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

Quite right, quite right. We did veer off track somewhat.

Still, linking Wikileaks to terrorists is like saying Jamie Oliver is a cannibal 'cos there are meat dishes in his cookbooks :P Unsubstantiated poppycock and one should be careful distributing such misinformation.

Anyway, back to my issue - does anybody know of a decent way of complaining about the behaviour of amazon, paypal and the two major credit cards OTHER than denial of service attacks?

[GreyGeek]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

....
True, neither do we know whether you, snowhog or indeed I are funded by terrorists.
.....

Whaaaat?? He is?

[GreyGeek]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

.....
Americans are in danger of losing their freedom under the guise of being branded as: 'spies', 'traitors', enemies of the state' and so on, just for disagreeing with the "Official View".
.....

In the now defunct East German state the Stasi had managed to corrupt or force 1/3rd of the people to spy on the other 2/3rds. In America there are millions of people who would kick the Constitution to the curb if they could gain a political or economic advantage by doing so.

Right after Obama took office the DHS released a "for official use only" report (which was leaked when law officers in Missouri read it and realized that the DHS was targeting them...)

(U//FOUO) Rightwing Extremism: Current
Economic and Political Climate Fueling
Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment
7 April 2009
(U) Prepared by the Extremism and Radicalization Branch, Homeland Environment Threat Analysis
Division. Coordinated with the FBI.
(U) Scope
(U//FOUO) This product is one of a series of intelligence assessments published by the
Extremism and Radicalization Branch to facilitate a greater understanding of the
phenomenon of violent radicalization in the United States. The information is
provided to federal, state, local, and tribal counterterrorism and law enforcement
officials so they may effectively deter, prevent, preempt, or respond to terrorist attacks
against the United States. Federal efforts to influence domestic public opinion must be
conducted in an overt and transparent manner, clearly identifying United States
Government sponsorship.
...
(U//FOUO) The possible passage of new restrictions on firearms and the return of
military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities
could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists
capable of carrying out violent attacks.
...
— (U//FOUO) Proposed imposition of firearms restrictions and weapons bans
likely would attract new members into the ranks of rightwing extremist groups,
as well as potentially spur some of them to begin planning and training for
violence against the government. The high volume of purchases and
stockpiling of weapons and ammunition by rightwing extremists in anticipation
of restrictions and bans in some parts of the country continue to be a primary
concern to law enforcement.
— (U//FOUO) Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are
attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing
extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to
boost their violent capabilities.
...
*
(U) Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and
adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.
..

So, if you are a returning vet, appose abortion or own guns you are a "hate-filled" extremist who would probably be or aid terrorists.

Translation: you oppose our Marxist views and actions.

Big Sis was forced to appologize to the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW).

A couple of months before the DHS released a report which supposedly outlined threats from the Left. Despite the explosions, fires and murders caused by the Weathermen Underground (created by Obama's friend Bill Ayres), the Symbianese Liberation Army, and the Black Panthers, to name just a few, the only Leftist organizations listed are Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front, which is equally ludicrous. It's like saying that if you like clean air or puppies you could be a terrorist. Equally outrageous is that the main threat the earlier report lists are cyber attacks. In fact, the report goes out of its way to stress that left-wing extremists have a “…non-violent, ‘no harm’ doctrine…”

I think the history and threats from various violent groups is summed up pretty in this article.

[dibl]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

So, if you are a returning vet, appose abortion or own guns you are a "hate-filled" extremist who would probably be or aid terrorists.

@GG, in all honesty that's a pretty radical re-characterization of

Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are
attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing
extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to
boost their violent capabilities.

Remember, 9-11 was a "failure of imagination", according to the official investigation and report. Isn't it a fact that the quoted DHS memo is merely attempting to exercise a little creative imagination, in an effort to forestall potential future problems. Is this just a "reasonable precaution"? That's all it looks like to me.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

So, if you are a returning vet, appose abortion or own guns you are a "hate-filled" extremist who would probably be or aid terrorists.

@GG, in all honesty that's a pretty radical re-characterization of

It wasn't my characterization. It was the way the VFW took it. After they made a big fuss about it Big Sis "apologized", as I mentioned. What I didn't mention was that the FBI report which was cited as a reason to "suspect" returning vets of being susceptible to becoming terrorists found only 203 (IIRC) examples of returning vets joining extremist groups out of 1.4 Million active service men. That's an extremely low rate and hence possibility. It's more likely they'd join the extreme left. Hundreds of them have.

Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are
attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing
extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to
boost their violent capabilities.

Remember, 9-11 was a "failure of imagination", according to the official investigation and report. Isn't it a fact that the quoted DHS memo is merely attempting to exercise a little creative imagination, in an effort to forestall potential future problems. Is this just a "reasonable precaution"? That's all it looks like to me.

But, aren't the same combat skills and experience equally attractive to Left wing extremists? Besides Timothy McVeigh and the abortion bomber there are few other cases of successful Right Wing extremists. The Left, on the otherhand, has a long history of resorting to violence to get their way if they can't do it at the ballot box.

Even though I favor WikiLeaks whistle blowing, Asange didn't filter names out of the diplomatic cables so, IMO, he has the blood of every person who will be killed because of his carelessness, IF it was carelessness. I hope that corporations are not successful in getting the Bank of America secrets squashed. I suspect that there will be a LOT of unclean hands in Congress and I suspect that most of them are making a lot of noise about the Cables in the hope that the corporate leaks can be squashed before the American people find out the truth about the "bail-out".

[dibl]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

But, aren't the same combat skills and experience equally attractive to Left wing extremists? Besides Timothy McVeigh and the abortion bomber there are few other cases of successful Right Wing extremists. The Left, on the otherhand, has a long history of resorting to violence to get their way if they can't do it at the ballot box.

That is absolutely a true fact. Fanatics of all political stripes will happily justify any means to achieve their ends, and will recruit helpers wherever they can find someone vulnerable.

[Detonate]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

Well, I'm a combat veteran, with a lot of skills with explosives, I own guns, and know how to use them, and I am known for my right wing views. Yet no right wing radical group has ever tried to recruit me. I feel left out.

I guess my life membership in the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the American Legion, and the Society of the First Infantry Division would qualify?

[dibl]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

Well, I'm a combat veteran, with a lot of skills with explosives, I own guns, and know how to use them, and I am known for my right wing views.

But you're not 22, unemployed, and uneducated (happily). I think that's the difference.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

Well, I'm a combat veteran, with a lot of skills with explosives, I own guns, and know how to use them,....

With an MS in Biochemistry and major hours in Physics and Math, my hobby while in college and for a few years afterward, was to make every chemical explosive known (at the time), which I did - gun powder, NI3, Nitroglycerin, RDX, TNT, etc... But, nothing I ever made was as strong as today's binary explosives.
There is no way the TSA could detect that stuff, especially if it were in a body cavity, or even the mouth.

While teaching at a college in Central Nebraska the fraternity for which I was the faculty sponsor was given the task of digging out a dozen or so tree stumps, some more than 2' in diameter. Their shovels were stopped by the roots. Their axes were dulled by the dirt and stones. After a day 8 boys finally got one out. It left a hole about 10' across and 4' deep. In 1970 I needed only my drivers license to purchase a box of 1 lb sticks (50) of Ammonium Nitrate/5% Nitroglycerine (IIRC) and a dozen electrical blasting caps from a construction firm in Council Bluffs, IA, and drive back to the Central Nebraska I taught at with them. Using 3, 4 or 5 sticks I gently lifted all of them a few feet into the air and they landed within 10 feet of the hole.
All except one. It was the biggest stump. When I had arrived on campus that fall and examined the chemical stock room I noticed a FIVE LB bottle of Picric Acid, dry, and 3/4ths full ... with sublimed crystals adhering to the underside of the cap and the upper inside parts of the bottle. There was enough there to do serious damage to the building the lab was in (lab in the basement of the two story wooden structure built about 100 years ago.) There were several other smaller bottles of old, unstable explosive chemicals also on the shelves. I wasn't going to risk opening them to put water in the jars, and they were too unstable to risk driving to any location. The police didn't have a better suggestion so I told them I'd dispose of them when I blew the tree stumps out. The boys dug a post hole at a slant 5' down and right beside the main root. I cleared that end of the campus and carried the bottles from the lab to the stump, alone. I put the bottles of chemicals in the bottom of the hole and placed a couple sticks of explosive on top, in such a way as to direct the explosion toward a huge empty field. I packed the hole with moist dirt and got everyone 500' away, behind shelters. The explosion was thunderous. I had boys blocking traffic at an intersection 600' away. They were standing in the intersection and watch a piece of the stump fly toward them and land in the intersection about 50' away. It was bigger than both of them could lift or move. The other piece, about the same size, landed about 20' from the hole, in the same direction the other piece traveled. Made for an interesting afternoon. The police had a few calls about the noise.

The next year a student came to the campus after spending several years as a powder monkey for the Montana forestry service. He showed me what was in the trunk of his car; 5 red plastic tubes of bentonite clay saturated with Nitroglycerine. Each tube was 5 lbs. I suspect that each tube contained about 1 lb of Nitroglycerine. It was like a moist playdough. He'd take a handful or two of it and mold it to fit his circumstance and set it off with electrical or chemical fuses. Knowing Nitroglycerine, THAT scared me.

P.S: I forgot to ask: would that knowledge and experience qualify me as a prime terrorist suspect in Big Sis's eyes?

[Snowhog]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

P.S: I forgot to ask: would that knowledge and experience qualify me as a prime terrorist suspect in Big Sis's eyes?

Well, should we forward this to her and find out?

[GreyGeek]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

OH, NOES!

[PhilT]

Re: Wikileaks - Documents aiming to stop Free and Open Source software in Europe

I know this is a bit off the point, but like GG I was a chemistry student and while still at school (back in the late 1950s) we used to make small bombs for fun using chlorates, but we also synthesised fulminates and so on (and we used to have fun making little craters in the middle of farmers' fields, or blowing up bushes or small trees). I'm not proud of my youth, I hasten to add, but we never had malicious intent.

So what? you might say, but the point is, anyone with a modicum of expertise COULD become a terrorist; it just comes down to motivation! We had no political agenda. We were just exploring exciting chemical reactions, and while doing this I nearly killed myself twice and was jeered at loudly by 650 students when paraded in front of the school - as an example of stupid behaviour - with both hands and arms bandaged up, and quite a lot of hair singed off, after a serious flare accident. I was more careful afterwards! How would the TSA or Homeland Security profile me?

I am afraid I just have no sure idea how or why people become radicalised (I wasn't) but I suppose economic or political exclusion and gross injustice could certainly trigger it.

But, getting back to Toad's question about how to treat Amazon, PayPal etc, could there be any future in using Bitcoin P2P Currency? http://www.bitcoin.org/

I don't really understand how it would work but it seems to potentially be a way of avoiding middlemen and banks. Any thoughts?

By the way, Moderators, this thread (although very interesting) has drifted off topic quite considerably. Should it be closed?