Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

[Fintan]

I understand that the movie / music business is losing it but this takes the cake, at least in my VHO:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20016995-261.html

[GreyGeek]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

Beware of the Trojan Horse, (or media moguls bearing gifts!).

The RICO Act was passed by Congress with the "promise" that it would "only" be used to fight organized crime. The Kefauver Committee, officially the Senate Special Committee to Investigate Crime in Interstate Commerce, identified the problem but was never able to do much about it because the MAFIA could afford better lawyers than the DOJ could hire. The situation eventually resulted in the passage of the RICO Act, Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. The RICO act stipulates:

a person who is a member of an enterprise that has committed any two of 35 crimes—27 federal crimes and 8 state crimes—within a 10-year period can be charged with racketeering. Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $25,000 and sentenced to 20 years in prison per racketeering count. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill-gotten gains and interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity." RICO also permits a private individual harmed by the actions of such an enterprise to file a civil suit; if successful, the individual can collect treble damages.

When the U.S. Attorney decides to indict someone under RICO, he or she has the option of seeking a pre-trial restraining order or injunction to temporarily seize a defendant's assets and prevent the transfer of potentially forfeitable property, as well as require the defendant to put up a performance bond. This provision was placed in the law because the owners of Mafia-related shell corporations often absconded with the assets. An injunction and/or performance bond ensures that there is something to seize in the event of a guilty verdict.

In many cases, the threat of a RICO indictment can force defendants to plead guilty to lesser charges, in part because the seizure of assets would make it difficult to pay a defense attorney. Despite its harsh provisions, a RICO-related charge is considered easy to prove in court, as it focuses on patterns of behavior as opposed to criminal acts.[4]

Although the RICO Act creator, G. Robert Blakey, claims otherwise, there were promises made by Congressmen to those who were concerned that this Act could be abused that it would only be used against organized crime. While we hear about the use of RICO against high profile targets we seldom hear that currently the RICO act is used over 10,000 times a year by law enforcement agencies as a means, it appears, to supplement or even replace funds from normal taxation or grants. This is made possible by the "guilty property" interpretation used as a legal justification for seizing assets to reduce or remove the financial capability of the accused to purchase seasoned, successful lawyers. Once the "guilty property" is seized, the RICO act stipulates that it does not have to be returned, even if it is later proven that the law officers raided the WRONG house or seized property of innocent people.

Because, while I was teaching in a small village in central Nebraska I was also a deputy marshal there, I had an interest in the TV show "Cops". The two most common acts by police that I witnessed being shown by the cameras were 1) the blatant violation of peoples rights in so many cases, and 2) the use of RICO to acquire property or cash. In one episode that flashy, white haired chief, was filmed discussing (before the raid by the swat team) how his group and the other cooperating group were going to divide the property they planned to seize during the raid. It included TWO brand new, black SUVS, which they apparently had their eye on for a while.

RICO has been used to SUE the RIAA, and WIN!.

Leahy and Hatch have acted as RIAA surrogates in Congress before (Hatch considers himself an "artist"), and their "COIC" Act would be used like RICO has been, only at the behest of media gangsters, a RICO in reverse.

[vinnywright]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

I .personalty don't see anything wrong with on line file sharing........

look remember when you would by a new tape or VHS video or now a cd or dvd and after watching it you would let your friends/neighbors then borrow it for a wile?

well what's the difference now if I by a piece of media and and want to let my friend over seas or across the country borrow it ?

I'v watched/listen to plenty of media that I may not have bought if not first seen/herd in this way and then bought after the fact.

VINNY

[dibl]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

I personalty don't see anything wrong with on line file sharing........

look remember when you would by a new tape or VHS video or now a cd or dvd and after watching it you would let your friends/neighbors then borrow it for a wile?

The problem, I believe, is that digital multimedia content, copied and shared via the internet, is accelerated about a zillion times faster than a VHS tape being passed around the neighborhood.

I agree with GG that RICO is a very heavy hammer. On the other hand, the Mafia (and today's organized gangs) aren't easily disrupted with conventional individual indictments and prosecutions. It takes strong medicine to fight a bad disease.

My personal view is that any amount of power or money given to a bureaucrat is likely to be abused, to some degree. Authors and inventors deserve to have their copyrights and inventions respected and defended. Honest citizens are entitled to a presumption of innocence. The Government should not be allowed to use the mere threat of a RICO prosecution to badger innocent citizens, and I'm sure that sometimes happens. There's a balancing act that needs to be performed here -- I wish there were a lot more wisdom in Congress (and less noise).

[GreyGeek]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

There is "fair use" and there is theft.

Consider a book. It is legal fair use to let my neighbor borrow it. While he has it I cannot read it. It is theft, and a violation of copyright law, to make a xerox copy of it and give the copy to my neighbor, or keep the copy and give the book. By doing so I have deprived the author of his/her due.

Your computer is a xerox machine. If you have copied the mp3 files, on that Audio CD you bought, to your HD so you could conveniently play them, that is legal fair use. BUT, if you then give that CD to someone else and still retained the copied MP3 files on your HD to enjoy you have gone beyond fair use. You are a thief.

Say, in the future, a Replicator is invented and I can replicate a computer merely by feeding my computer into it in order to supply a pattern for it. Then, I can make copies to my heart's desire as long as I feed it raw materials and electrical power. You are the computer manufacturer who spent large sums in research, development and manufacture. Now, some kid with a commodity replicator is raiding auto junk yards at next to nothing costs to supply raw materials to his replicator so he can make copies of his computer to give to all of his friends. Who in their right mind would put any additional work into improving the computer if their efforts would be stolen by a punk with a replicator?

On the other hand, gangster middlemen, like the RIAA, who rob from both the artists and the consumer, ENCOURAGE disregard for the law. Corrupt Congressmen will create laws which extend the power and harshness of the RIAA and thus make thieves out of everyone, guilty or not, who does not have the financial resources to fight them. Their greed is just another example how corporate America has gone over to the Dark Side.

[dibl]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

Say, in the future, a Replicator is invented and I can replicate a computer merely by feeding my computer into it in order to supply a pattern for it. Then, I can make copies to my heart's desire as long as I feed it raw materials and electrical power.

@GG, have you ever considered how close a VM comes to being such a "replicator"? For example, I happen to have a 40GB Windows 7 VM, which has several commercial software applications installed on it, which I can run with VMware. I'm the only user, and it only runs on my Linux box. But, were I without scruples, I could easily put it up for sale, and sell copies via Internet downloads/torrents for some cheap price, say $25.00 a pop. With the VM, the buyer would get the Windows OS and the software apps, all pre-installed and configured, ready to run on any Linux system.

You are right about the effects of stupid, complicated laws -- same as overly complex tax codes. They make violators out of everyone, because no one can be certain he's not in some state of non-compliance. And once the citizens understand that they are already violators, the only question remaining is how much they care about "shades of gray".

[sithlord48]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

Your computer is a xerox machine. If you have copied the mp3 files, on that Audio CD you bought, to your HD so you could conveniently play them, that is legal fair use.

IIRC that is illegal under the DCMA because you have altered the format. for fair use you would need to make a 1:1 copy of sed item (ie. a music cd). then again to make a music cd from it you first need to voliate the DMCA to cerimvent the copy protect on the cd.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

IIRC that is illegal under the DCMA

What Snowhog said about "grey", and the vdi ...

I never thought about it but I can see that you are right, Snowhog. I have a legal copy of XP Pro SP2 installed as a guest OS, which I regularly back up, besides using "snapshot". I "could" give away or sell a copy and still keep using it, but that would be an extremely stupid thing to do.

[Fintan]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

Well, I am glad I sparked off a nice little discussion here

Thanks dible for a new business venture I'll start selling my windows VM with PS, DW, FS and a few others and be a billionaire

No. really I have a lot of reading to do it appears

[Detonate]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

Aside from the interesting discussion about protecting property rights and abuses of the RICO law, don't you think giving the government power to shut down web sites is very dangerous? Once they have the power will they use it only to shut down sites sharing intellectual properties or will it extend to other sites? When will they start shutting down sites that they find politically offensive? I think giving them such power will be extremely dangerous.

[Fintan]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

When will they start shutting down sites that they find politically offensive? I think giving them such power will be extremely dangerous.

Given the inherent paranoid mentality right now, I can easily see this happening.

Are we china?

[kubicle]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

Your computer is a xerox machine. If you have copied the mp3 files, on that Audio CD you bought, to your HD so you could conveniently play them, that is legal fair use.

IIRC that is illegal under the DCMA because you have altered the format. for fair use you would need to make a 1:1 copy of sed item (ie. a music cd). then again to make a music cd from it you first need to voliate the DMCA to cerimvent the copy protect on the cd.

It's not illegal to circumvent copy protection for personal use or use the tools for that (even though it's illegal to make or distribute such tools). It's also not illegal to rip a cd that you own into mp3s for your own use, for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping#United_States

[vinnywright]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

Your computer is a xerox machine. If you have copied the mp3 files, on that Audio CD you bought, to your HD so you could conveniently play them, that is legal fair use.

IIRC that is illegal under the DCMA because you have altered the format. for fair use you would need to make a 1:1 copy of sed item (ie. a music cd). then again to make a music cd from it you first need to voliate the DMCA to cerimvent the copy protect on the cd.

It's not illegal to circumvent copy protection for personal use or use the tools for that (even though it's illegal to make or distribute such tools). It's also not illegal to rip a cd that you own into mp3s for your own use, for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping#United_States

Quote from article

a federal law has nonetheless made it illegal to manufacture or traffic in a device or tool that permits a consumer to make such copies."[3] This case made clear that manufacturing and distribution of circumvention tools was illegal, but fair use of those tools was not.

dose that include NERO or K3b ?

and so in the case of nero how do they get away with selling it?

VINNY

[dibl]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

Nero, K3B, and other burning software are not "circumvention" tools, they are copying tools. Circumvention tools let the user break the DRM feature and extract the content.

[kubicle]

Re: Talk about fighting the symptoms.....

Nero, K3B, and other burning software are not "circumvention" tools, they are copying tools. Circumvention tools let the user break the DRM feature and extract the content.

Like "libdvdcss2" which probably is illegal to distribute in the US (of course the laws are not the same everywhere in the world)