Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

[GreyGeek]

After all, it is why we fought the Revolutionary War!
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...-order-lifted/
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/8/1...s_nick_merrill

It seems that the "Holy Office of the Inquisition" was the role model for the PAT and NSL.

The FBI, Congress and Obama (who signed the extension of the NSLs) must be so zealous that they cannot see that they have destroyed what they are trying to defend, IF they are trying to defend it.

[dibl]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

Yep.

It's a bit of conundrum, really -- the balancing act between open access to information, and the Government's responsibility to protect us ("us" being citizens of the USA).

Note that George Washington's plans for capture of the Hessians at Trenton were NOT publicized in advance. Note that Billy Sherman's Savannah Campaign, aka "March to the Sea" was not public information. Note that Ike Eisenhower's D-Day plan was highly classified, and there were fairly extensive diversionary feints delivered, to distract the Wehrmacht, with the news media of the day knowing nothing about it.

I very much like to know what the Government is up to, and I do believe that evil plans flourish in secrecy. On the other hand, I don't want those who would like to kill me (and you too, GG) to have any insight into the Government's sources and methods of defending us.

[Prescience]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

I completely agree. As Benjamin Franklin once said, "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." The government has spent, forced private firms to pay, and caused economic damage do to new regulation a total of trillions of dollars in the name of security. How many people has this security helped them catch? At best, under 10. Consider this though, whenever anyone gets close to pulling off a terrorist attack, he is caught and stopped by private citizens and detained until authorities can pick him up. Of course government then credits the arrest on security measures. I'd be willing to bet that if the people that government might have caught do to these new measures were not caught by the government, they would most likely would have almost certainly have been stopped by private citizens.

To my understanding, there are some legitimate and useful parts to the Patriot Act, like the ability of judges to issue warrants for roving wiretaps. Other than those few legitimate things, it needs to go.

[kyonides]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

I'm not an American (anyway I don't like that gentilic even if I know where it comes from) but I've seen many times on the news how US citizens killed their fellows in schools, colleges, federal buildings and I think that the main menace isn't coming from outside the US. The curious thing is they're busy dealing with the so called foreign threats, like the one from North Korea who hasn't even started a war.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

Washington had his Benedict Arnold, Confederate forces had their spies (some sleeping in bed with the Northern generals) and Eisenhower had his spy problems too, but none of them did anything like the FBI's NSL, nor did they need the Patriot Act, although Americans of Japanese ancestry living on the West coast needed protection from the Census bureau, who identified for the FBI all them, a DIRECT VIOLATION of the Census Law, after FDR signed an EXECUTIVE ORDER commanding that they be put into concentration camps.

[Prescience]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

One thing I don't understand is why so many of the people who want things like the patriot act repealed because of how it violates their liberties always seem to insist that the government violate other liberties. While America is relatively good about it, compared to the vast majority of countries. The whole world seems dominated by statists. When will the people finally wakeup, end the road to serfdom, and take their freedom back?

[kjjjjshab]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

Thanks for reminding me I need to get a contribution in to Sen. Russ Feingold. He's voted "for me" on many an issue, but the single vote against Patriot really did earn him my deepest respect.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

When asked why he voted against the Patriot Act Sen Kucinich replied "Because I read it".

These are the 10 US senators who voted against the Patriot Act Renewal of March 2006. The senators in bold type voted in favor of the Patriot Act in 2001.

NAYs ---10
Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Byrd (D-WV)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Murray (D-WA)
Wyden (D-OR)

Inouye (D-HI) did not vote on the 2006 Patriot Act Renewal

The only senators in the entire Congress who understand the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

[kyonides]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

Washington had his Benedict Arnold, Confederate forces had their spies (some sleeping in bed with the Northern generals) and Eisenhower had his spy problems too, but none of them did anything like the FBI's NSL, nor did they need the Patriot Act, although Americans of Japanese ancestry living on the West coast needed protection from the Census bureau, who identified for the FBI all them, a DIRECT VIOLATION of the Census Law, after FDR signed an EXECUTIVE ORDER commanding that they be put into concentration camps.

Now that you mentioned that fact, GG, I remember that the Americans sent a letter to the Costa Rican government with a list of all nationals of German ancestry living in Costa Rica. And guess what, they got arrested... Some people even claimed it could be necessary because they sighted a German submarine not too far from the Caribbean coast almost at the same time.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

One thing I don't understand is why so many of the people who want things like the patriot act repealed because of how it violates their liberties always seem to insist that the government violate other liberties
.....

That is a contradiction. While I was attending college I clearly remember the protest movements of the 60's. It seemed that the major issue at the time was freedom of expression, especially political, with protestors making their point by displaying posters over flowing with profanity and the oppression of the far Left they claimed was occurring, even a decade after Republican Senator Joe MaCarthy's "Red Scare" and his subsequent denunciation after Edward R Murrow exposed his hypocrisy.

However, what was good for the Goose apparently is not good for the Gander. Those same Leftists, after making their "Long March" through the colleges and universities, emerged years later as professors, deans and presidents. Having achieved political power they now abuse the "freedom of speech" they fought for as students and now vigorously oppress any campus groups which attempt to express views they disagree with. Using guilt by association they use imaginary or distorted links to despicable people to condemn their opponents. However, when obvious links between Pres. Obama and the Weathermen bomber Bill Ayers are made public they criticized folks who made that link public as using guilt by association.

It seems both political parties violate their "standards" when ever convenient or politically expedient. But, one thing they both seem to agree with 100% is taking lobbyists bribes in exchange for legislative favors.

[MoonRise]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

It seems both political parties violate their "standards" when ever convenient or politically expedient. But, one thing they both seem to agree with 100% is taking lobbyists bribes in exchange for legislative favors.

Which is hard to even vote nowadays. Lesser of two evils!? That is what it has come too. Neither party care for the people but only their pockets.

[blobfish]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

Which is hard to even vote nowadays. Lesser of two evils!? That is what it has come too. Neither party care for the people but only their pockets.

this is so true! we need to change voting system so we can get more than 2 real candidates.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-more-accurate
I need to be able to vote for a third party without enabling "the other side"..... I really don't like that term.

[Prescience]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

GreyGeek, I've personally experienced something similar to this. When I was in school, me and some friends started a gun rights club. We tried to become an officially chartered student group. Both the student council and the Jesuits running the school fought and denied us at every step of the way. They even threatened penalties to us if we used their campus for the group in any way, even if it was behind closed doors. We wound up having to do everything in secret and across the street from campus at a bar. The student newspaper, which had just been taken over by the school administration after a couple of articles critical of how the school spent the money we paid in tuition, also blasted us continuously. They portrayed us as being violent militants.

I've heard that a new trend in university's are free speech zones. If you say things they disagree with, they can have wide digression to punish you. If you say anything that MIGHT be considered offensive even in the free speech zones, you can be expelled. I've heard of several examples where it was used to actually expel people who spoke out about public policy or who organized politically and never really did anything remotely offensive.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Why the Patriot Act, and FBI NSL's are EVIL!

So did my son while a student at UNL in Lincoln, NE, a couple decades ago. He was voted president of the Right-to-Life group, which had an active SUN (Student Association of UNL) approved presence on that campus since 1972. A new president and a faculty representative to the SUN body changed that atmosphere. Brown Shirts started defacing or ripping their posters down, attending meetings and causing disturbances, and heckling guest speakers and threatening both them and RTL members with bodily harm. The RTL members, of course, were blamed for all the disturbances, which resulted in their loss of SUN approval and finances, the right use campus facilities for meetings or to host guest speakers. Many of the Brown Shirts were members of the groups which apposed the RTL group, but they continued with the full blessing and funding of the SUN. RTL members student fees supported groups that apposed their views.

NOW, the new code words are "Hate Speech" which is, or course, ANY speech which disagrees with the views of those that hold power in SUN.