You MUST watch these two films ...

[askrieger]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

My wife shops at the local farmer's market as much as possible, BUT (and it's a big one) in New England you can't get affordable fresh produce year round. (The veggies can't grow through the snow, so they come from heated green houses and oil is NOT cheap.) As a result, we eat frozen vegetables for roughly 6 months a year. Dairy products are easily available, and affordable. Fresh seafood is available for at least 9 months of the year, but local meat is NOT an option, and neither is grain. As a result, we're hostages to the big agriculture industry. I imagine that in other regions it works the same way, but the non-local products differ. The only reliable, universally applicable, food policy I've ever heard is: "Don't eat anything that your grandparents wouldn't recognise." For us "golden-agers", that works, but the under fifty crowd should probably add a "great" or two in there. On the other hand, anyone who has read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle", knows that the situation was no better a century ago than it is today. I doubt that it will be any better a century from now, but if we ever get population growth under control, it probably won't be much worse.

[Fintan]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

As a result, we eat frozen vegetables for roughly 6 months a year.

As a restaurant / hotel consultant (hands on, no desk jockey ) and a qualified cook can reassure you that frozen veggies are usually more healthy than the "fresh" veggies.

The reason being that frozen veggies are shock frozen within 1-2 hours of being harvested thus keeping up to 90% of their nutritional value.

where by "fresh" veggies loose up to 50% of the NV within 6-10 hours (depending on the veg).

BTW where are those films?

[Ole Juul]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

I applaud your approach askrieger.

I have many comments on your post, but I'll just say them without quoting.

One of the problems with getting local produce is not so much that everything needs to be imported, but that it is economically mandated by the style and politics of modern production. I've lived in cold climates all my life and I can tell you that brussels sprouts and kale are normally picked in the snow. January is good. You sow them late so they mature late. I don't think the cabbage family is the only thing which stays fresh in frozen weather because of it's cellular structure. Years ago people used to bend to the rules of nature in regard to the food production. We have many choices. It is also possible to keep your potatoes and carrots over the winter. Root vegetables are very good for this. Put them in sand. An old rancher lady near by showed me how she does it and keeps the sand for next year. Unfortunately, these kinds of things require humans to work and don't lend themselves well to the contemporary oil based mandated economy of a corporation.

I live in the country now and I can see the economics / politics of farming here. There are no locally grown vegetables marketed despite the theoretical possibility. About 50 miles from here is a farming community where a lot of organic produce is grown. It is not available here, and surprisingly not there either. I am on the border of one of the major fruit producing areas of the world (Okanagan) and we get mostly imported fruit in the one store we have access to. The store is a regular supermarket in a town of about 2500. One store - a monopoly. I live in the country and most of the vegetables are imported from USA, Mexico, or China. We get OLD food! Luckily we do have the possibility to thwart the system a bit.

That said; I have a couple of notes regarding frozen and/or greenhouse vegetables. Frozen foods are sometimes the better choice. The reason for this is that the companies that produce it have so much pull that they can get the highest quality product. They are so powerful that farmers have to say "yes sir". Sometimes the fresh produce is actually the left overs - quality wise.

An interesting thing about green house production is that they have to abide by much stricter rules than field crops. In the field they use a lot of poisonous sprays and chemicals which have dubious effects on the end user. A lot of this stuff is not allowed in green houses. Not only that, but green houses are generally unable to use pesticides because it would kill the bees and other insects which they actually purchase and cultivate to pollinate their crops. They cannot produce crops such as tomatoes without pollination. So, certainly in the case of tomatoes, the green house ones are going to be the better product. Still, they're probably both genetically modified. However they are both poor tasting from my point of view. They grow varieties which are aimed for early picking and their storage/shipping qualities. IOW, they are chose for ALL the wrong characteristics. Taste is so far down the list that it is probably on the other side of the sheet.

We can get chicken eggs here. I don't know if anyone else has seen those but the yokes are bright yellow - like in pictures. Occasionally we run out and buy a dozen "store boughts", but they look really unappetizing with their pale yokes. I can't believe they have the audacity to charge full price. Interestingly chickens, for both meat and eggs, can be raised in a city environment and some cities are changing the rules to come more into line with people's food needs.

We can fish in this area. I haven't really gotten into it, but there is a river a minute's walk from here where I could get trout for a couple of months of the year. Sometimes we get some given to us though. When I was a kid fresh fish meant that they wiggle. The fish stores had fish in the window and they would still wiggle. The word "fresh" has been re-defined in modern times to embrace the unfortunate situation the we have already taken most of the fish out of the ocean and now the boats have to go so far off shore that they can't come back daily. What we now call "fresh" is usually frozen on the boat before it gets to the store. Frozen is not fresh to me. Pull a trout out of the river and stick it in the frying pan right away with a little piece of onion. The result is as different from "fresh" store fish as liver is from steak.

An interesting piece of information regarding canned goods: Canned carrots have twice the vitamin A as fresh ones. Why? Because the vitamin A increases with the maturity of the carrot. In produce stores they usually sell quite young carrots because they are more tender. The canneries use full grown carrots.

@Fintan: Yes, it's unfortunate, but frozen is often a better quality. Actually it's pathetic. We deserver better. I've heard of past civilizations being able to do it, but our culture just hasn't developed technologically to the point where we can get food to market. It's actually funny. We can build computers really well, but we can't grow food competently, nor deliver it on time.

[lcorken]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

Wow! You guys are inspiring me to try my little backyard garden again. Cathy and I planted a few items back in May but the Sun stopped and the rain didn't. The only thing that sort of recovered was the kohlrabi (member of the Brassica family). We live in Lincoln City, Oregon (central Oregon coast) where it's too cool for many veggies. This time we will try more of the Brassicas.

We were partly inspired by Michelle Obama's White house veggie garden. I suspect many people viewed that in the news and thought "Oh, how cute". But, if more folks would try it I think it would do more to cure the health and obesity problems in the U.S. than all the other diet, drugs, insurance, etc.

Couple years ago Cathy and I both had our blood tested for food sensitivity. We both tested highly sensitive to Wheat, Dairy, and Eggs. We are only a sample size of 2 but it does make me wonder how many other people could have a problem with these foods and don't know it. If the Genetic Mutilation factor were taken out would we have the same results?

Ken.

[Chopstick]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

Hi Folks,
first of all, I must say, despite the gruesome message of the films, I'm delighted to see this discussion on kubuntuforums.net ! This topic has to receive more public attention!
I have not seen "The Future of Food" yet (downloading now), but there is a documentary called "Food Inc." which is probably along the same lines. This one especially attacks industrial meat production and genetically modified crops. (Unfortunately I was not able to find a working online version.)

Talking about evil corporation, there is another documentary that imho everyone should watch: The Corporation. There is an online version available here http://www.archive.org/details/The_Corporation_.
But this being a Linux forum there is at least one, probably two, major corporations we all deeply distrust .

Every time we go to the grocery store we put in a vote for these people.
How often do you pay extra for organic foods?
Would you pay $10 a pound for range fed beef or $3 for Monsanto's grain fattened beef?

I could not agree more! For that reason I'm vegetarian since about 5 years now, and I try to avoid processed food as much as possible. Although I do not always buy organic; I try to, especially when it comes to dairy and eggs, but it is not always possible. I live downtown and I don't have a car, so my options are limited... it's sad, but it seems you always need a car when you want to be closer to nature...

Btw. although I would encourage everyone to become vegetarian (for ecological and environmental reasons), I'm not saying meat is necessarily evil (subsidized corn is, really). The point is, for sustainable food production on a global scale we have to eat *less*, much less, and it should be more expensive; Industrial meat production is only cheap because it is indirectly heavily subsidized - you don't pay the real price!.

CBC recently had a very good documentary on that, available as podcast:
"Have your meat, and eat it too". Imho it takes a very objective and balanced look
at the ecological and other implications of meat production.
Here are the links to the podcast:
Part 1: http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/ideas_20100607_32369.mp3
Part 2: http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/ideas_20100614_32370.mp3
Part 3: http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/ideas_20100621_32371.mp3

On another note, the patent system in the US is totally broken, Europe is definitely ahead in this area; but unfortunately the agricultural/food production sector is as broken in Europe as in the US and Canada (with the exception that genetically modified crops which are not very popular in Europe).

Chopstick

[Ole Juul]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

lcorken: Couple years ago Cathy and I both had our blood tested for food sensitivity. We both tested highly sensitive to Wheat, Dairy, and Eggs. We are only a sample size of 2 but it does make me wonder how many other people could have a problem with these foods and don't know it. If the Genetic Mutilation factor were taken out would we have the same results?

There are a lot of people saying that wheat and dairy are hurting many people. It is common to suffer from low lever "not feeling your best" illness. I tried eliminating wheat and dairy for a while and it gave remarkable results. It is interesting to note that the politics of food has virtually made it law that all commercially produced food must contain wheat and especially dairy. Look at any restaurant menu and it becomes clear. These kinds of "laws" are not written as such because they are business based - they are in effect above the law because they are buried in our corporate economy. I frame the problem this way because it would be illegal to make the whole population sick on purpose - yet the effect is the same. You have to be a bit of a rebel to keep your health in this society.

Regarding the "Genetic Mutilation factor" I don't know what specific effect it has, but I do know that there is no scientific test for food. When marketeers say that it is safe, that is not a scientific statement, although they would like you to think it is. Many studies have indeed been done but that does not mean that they are valid or even relevant. A scientifically defensible test would have to involve a sizeable population and be done over more than 2 generations. That is not doable in our world.

[Ole Juul]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

I could not agree more! For that reason I'm vegetarian since about 5 years now, and I try to avoid processed food as much as possible. Although I do not always buy organic; I try to, especially when it comes to dairy and eggs, but it is not always possible.

Processed food is a real killer - also of the real (physical) economy. Vegetarianism is an interesting approach and probably a good one. Funny thing though, here is the country all we can buy is old low quality vegetables which are shipped from far away - often from other countries. It is possible to grow stuff, but my post-polio body can't deal with that any more and I rely on the kindness of those that do to get a little hit of real food once in a while. In a city, the best choice, as you point out, is to buy organic when you can.

Regarding dairy, the quality of modern milk is horrendous. What we get here, goes rotten after a short time. I can't believe they do what they do for health reasons. Contemporary style pasteurization is wrong in so many ways. It used to work, but they changed the method so the milk goes rotten instead of sour and you can't use it then. Honestly, I don't think they know what they're doing - except maybe on the corporate level.

I live downtown and I don't have a car, so my options are limited... it's sad, but it seems you always need a car when you want to be closer to nature...

I lived most of my life in a city, and when I came here to the country a few years ago, one of the things which really struck me is how much gas gets burnt. Not just for heavy machinery, which has an economic benefit, and not just for motorsports (quads and snowmobiles) which has no economic benefit, but just in shopping. People drive long distances every day. It is common to drive (in a gas guzzeling truck) to town almost every day, and also take a 3 hour drive once a week to pick up things further away. This, of course, is not necessary but just a life style. In the old days here, people would go to town once a month or less.

Btw. although I would encourage everyone to become vegetarian (for ecological and environmental reasons), I'm not saying meat is necessarily evil (subsidized corn is, really). The point is, for sustainable food production on a global scale we have to eat *less*, much less, and it should be more expensive; Industrial meat production is only cheap because it is indirectly heavily subsidized - you don't pay the real price!

Yes, meat is very expensive, and in many ways. There are a number of ranchers where I live so the price is a bit better and the quality much higher. The environmental concerns are another thing though. I think that the large feed lots and corporate style production is orders of magnitude more expensive that traditional production though.

[Qqmike]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

"Vegetarianism is an interesting approach and probably a good one."

Grew up in the 50's and so grew up eating lots of meat dishes. Frankly, one of my all-time favorite foods is a homemade hamburger (or green chile cheeseburger). Hot dogs come in a close second. And steaks and such ... well, I've had a fill for a lifetime. That said, fact is, after trying a vegetarian diet now and then for periods of 3-8 weeks at a time, I can say I never felt better than at those times. Weight loss comes automatically (you can eat all you "want" and still lose at least 1 pound a week). The health benefits are numerous (just about everything, including low blood sugar); that is, after you de-bunk all the nonsense and precautions (you do need B-12; and some Omega-3 from fish is a good idea; etc.). Beans, (brown) rice & whole grains, veggies, fruits, and reduce the amount of sugars. That's it, all you need. Maybe, if you wish, limited quantities of (fatty) nuts, avocados, and fish. Sugars in milk are not real great for you. Animal proteins are not either (kidneys, etcetera). That said, not a purist here. When I want a Danish pastry or a green chile cheeseburger (or anything else), I have one. But it's amazing how that "craving" naturally subsides.

[Chopstick]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

Yes, meat is very expensive, and in many ways. There are a number of ranchers where I live so the price is a bit better and the quality much higher. The environmental concerns are another thing though. I think that the large feed lots and corporate style production is orders of magnitude more expensive that traditional production though.

I agree; this is for example explained in the CBC podcast I posted above. The only reason industrial meat production is so cheap is that they can feed their animals below production costs (with government subsidies) and that all the "externalities" (collateral damage) is not figured in to the price.
I heard somewhere (maybe in the podcast) that the real cost of a hamburger would be $200! I don't remember the source and how reliable that is, but if someone can come up with such a number, it must be significantly more than the $1 that a certain clown would have you believe...
Actually cattle also has its place in sustainable farming in regenerating the soil, and would certainly be part of an efficient food production system, but that means we would have to get away from mono-cultures.

@Qqmike: Wow, you are pretty old! ;-) Thanks for saving me the litany on B12 and Omega-3.
If you would also be willing to spend some extra bucks for range fed organic beef on your burger I would not have the slightest bit to object - as long as you only have it once in a while, it's alright. (that's what my mom does too)

A good friend of mine is a dietitian and she says eating more beans is a cure for almost all nutrition related disorders. Beans are very healthy. And since I don't eat meat and avoid non-organic dairy products, I also eat a lot of nuts (and Avocado, which is technically a berry...).
I'm not sure if I know what this meat-craving is, but a hand full of nuts and seeds is very filling and satisfying.

I've just seen "The Future of Food": very interesting stuff on GMO's! This terminator-gene is really the pinnacle of irresponsible selfishness and greed! I did not know about that before... Thanks for posting this, GreyGeek! (The documentary about politics in the US did not work, not even in Canada...)
Food Inc. focuses more on the government subsidies and economics/lobbyism, while The Corporation is about the motivation and pathology of the corporation as an institution.

Chopstick

[Ole Juul]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

A lot of dietary needs are individual. I've never had any allergies and I've eaten a very wide range of cultural and downright exotic foods most of my life, still some foods cause me serious mental disorientation and pain. Although I've enjoyed beans on many occasions, my tolerance has also varied over the years and they can have a really poisonous effect at times. Some beans use to give me a headache from the wierd smell when they are raw. I know it's because of the specific kind of protein, but my point is that I can smell different proteins and get different effects at different times. In short, it is impossible to generalize about dietary things. So for me meat is better than beans as none of it has any ill effects, although hamburgers and hot dogs are not in the picture for me.

Regarding the price of meat. I do feel guilty when I get store bought, but even local meat is probably not that environmentally friendly. Like Chopstick says, livestock has it's place in sustainable farming. However pure ranching has some drawbacks. That said, I can get pure, unmedicated, straight off the range, and unsubsidised, "wild" beef for about $2.50 /lb if I buy half a cow. I know my friend isn't getting rich by selling it at that price, but it is interesting that he is even able to do that. I think that it is only through politics and dirty tactics that large companies can compete in the food market. Hmm, reminds me a little of the software business.

[Qqmike]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

@ Chopstick "If you would also be willing to spend some extra bucks for range fed organic beef on your burger I would not have the slightest bit to object..."

Yes, I take that for granted and so forgot to mention it explicitly. Buffalo is a good choice, too (not all that expensive here, but at $6/pound it's almost double ground beef and well worth it--assuming you learn to cook it properly). Always the range fed, free-range, natural organic stuff, and especially meat including the (very carefully chosen) hot dogs! Not always organic for fruits and veggies--depends on factors. We have really great local stores for such here, along with lots of farmer's markets. Re vegetarian, I've even begun choosing vegan for the sweets (cookies and such). Breads--pumpernickel and rye are better than whole wheat (stone ground whole wheat is better than regular whole wheat); also a lower glycemic index. (Regular whole wheat is processed by the body the same as white bread.)

[lcorken]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

A lot of dietary needs are individual...

Individual is a key point here. I tried a raw vegan diet for several weeks some years ago and felt better for it. That was really difficult though, but I want to try it again.
My wife on the other hand functions a lot better on more the Atkins diet (controlled carbohydrates). She tried whole grains, fresh fruits, sugars, beans and had to restrict those. Now she is healthiest with meats and veggies, salads.
We both have to avoid wheat. That's not easy. If I do eat bread or pasta I pay the price the next couple days with joint pains and sinus problems. While my wife will get digestion issues, head ache, and depression.

An occasional Sunday drive for us is up highway 101 from Lincoln City, Oregon to Tillamook. The cows grazing on the grasses is very pleasant. Open the windows and smell the country side. Very nice. Cow smells are good.
In contrast to that, try going past a feed lot such as that found on I5 north of Bakersfield, California. Roll up the windows, close the vents, warn passengers to close there eyes! The smell is ghastly, the sight is horrifying. It's not surprising these animals have diseases ,E-coli and who knows what. That's enough to convert to vegan diet alone.

Ken

[kyonides]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

We both have to avoid wheat. That's not easy. If I do eat bread or pasta I pay the price the next couple days with joint pains and sinus problems. While my wife will get digestion issues, head ache, and depression.

That sounds scary...

It's the omegas what I really miss in my current diet because I don't eat any bread at all, even if old fashion bread preparation produced a really good bread that helped you get all the omegas you needed to keep your heart beating.

[GreyGeek]

Re: You MUST watch these two films ...

.....
It's the omegas what I really miss in my current diet because I don't eat any bread at all, even if old fashion bread preparation produced a really good bread that helped you get all the omegas you needed to keep your heart beating.

You should consider taking Omega-3 fish oil capsules,

There is evidence from multiple studies supporting intake of recommended amounts of DHA and EPA in the form of dietary fish or fish oil supplements lowers triglycerides, reduces the risk of death, heart attack, dangerous abnormal heart rhythms, and strokes in people with known cardiovascular disease, slows the buildup of atherosclerotic plaques ("hardening of the arteries"), and lowers blood pressure slightly. However, high doses may have harmful effects, such as an increased risk of bleeding.