Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why I came running back

[zlow]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

For me the most important thing is not it's free (without money), but Linux frees you from one of the most horrible companies ever existed. If I had to pay for Linux that would be no problem. But I must be able to use it. I think that's not an unreasonable expectation...

It sounds like you should try a Mac.

[Goeroeboeroe]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

About the Workrave sound problem: maybe you should start a new topic, because I'm afraid it's buried here under a lot of other problems. I'm pretty sure the sound problem can be easily fixed, thought I don't know enough to tell you how. My display problems were the reason I switched (for the moment).

Until now Mepis is working like 8.04 did! So I'm happy again and not going back to Windows. (Must have been in a very very very bad mood when I wrote that...)

About the Mac: I did have a Mac. I didn't like it at all. Sure, it's working great. I used it for some time just after OS X was made. It forced you to update/upgrade/uphold/up-whatever and especially it forced you to pay for the upgrades about every half a year. I had to, because I needed from some programs the newest version, and the newest versions were always incompatible with the previous OS-versions. Microsoft is evil, but at least most of the applications in Windows work in previous versions too.
I think if Apple had the power, it would be even worse as Microsoft.
That's what I like about open source and open standards etc.: it's very hard for one person or company to become a dictator. I really believe if open standards, internet, etc. are used in the right way, it can help bringing people together. But you don't bring people together by censoring the way Apple does with for example the applications they allow on their hardware.

So I'm really really really happy I can go on with Linux and start doing some work again.

[handheldcar]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

About the Workrave sound problem: maybe you should start a new topic, because I'm afraid it's buried here under a lot of other problems. I'm pretty sure the sound problem can be easily fixed, thought I don't know enough to tell you how. My display problems were the reason I switched (for the moment).

Until now Mepis is working like 8.04 did!

Okay, thanks, I'll do that. Now, Mepis is sounding even more tempting :P

[Goeroeboeroe]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

Mepis had also some problems. I think that's pretty normal when installing a complicated os. Windows has too, but you don't notice that because it's already installed.
In Mepis I made two passwords. And I couldn't log in anymore after restarting. Turned out the keyboard lay-out was changed, and I used some special characters. But that's the kind of normal things, I guess.
(Since this was right away beginning installing, I simply reinstalled, used abcdefgh as password, and changed it later.)

[67GTA]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

I just came back to Kubuntu after two years of Opensuse. Opensuse is definitely more polished, but the package management is too much trouble. I had to keep no less than 5 repos to get what I can get with 2 in Kubuntu. None of the repos are in sync, so you are constantly having to make sure you don't break something. Multimedia is a major PITA because of this also. Opensuse's multimedia apps are intentionally crippled so they can't play restricted media. You have to install your multimedia apps from the packman repo to get full codec support. Then you add a repo to update your kde version or you get an update from opensuse, amarok gets pulled in from that repo, and your music files stop playing. You can imagine the constant headache.

[apachelogger]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

I Opensuse is definitely more polished

I would not particularly mind examples, so that one can improve Kubuntu

[Bruce]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

openSUSE works.

In Kubuntu my experience over a couple weeks of giving it a try.

Akonadi crashed at every other logout.
The boot splashes disappears or is at a 1982 resolution if you change a driver.
Configuration of running services is not a simple thing, stopping running services is not a simple thing. Package management is a mess and is lacking many features and capabilities lacking in Kubuntu.
Power management doesn't work reliably and doesn't behave as expected. (Kubuntu no matter what setting I changed my processor would speed would slow down while plugged in, even though I explicitly set it not to when plugged in.)
I often had force shutdowns and reboots because the system would hang on shutdown. The system could easily be shutdown or rebooted via CLI, indicating it was something to do with the KDE implementation in Kubuntu and it not interacting with system correctly. No log files anywhere indicating a problem.

Ibus errors when running simple apps, such as Ooo and or skype. No I do not use a foreign language, but the only way to avoid the constant errors was run ibus at each boot.

Boot loader/grub configuration..............no real easy GUI way to do it, two files to edit or edit one and run a command to change the other, and if you happen to have removed entries you didn't want they will be over written.

There were more things, but I uninstalled so remembering each one specifically at this moment without having the OS running anymore is difficult.

In short here were my experiences. It felt like Kubuntu is hodgepodged together on-top of a system it wasn't intended to run on.

I only use KDE, and have used and or tried most KDE distributions available over the years dating back to KDE 1. Kubuntu is by far one of the worst implementations of KDE I have seen.

[The Liquidator]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

I Opensuse is definitely more polished

I would not particularly mind examples, so that one can improve Kubuntu

I don't consider myself qualified to make any comment myself - I've used only Kubuntu for the last 4 years so would not actually know what other KDE distros are better and why.

However there is one suggestion I could make: In the current version of Linux Format in the UK Ubuntu gets a 9 out of 10 score whereas kubuntu gets severely criticized, with no reason to use that over any other "vanilla" KDE distro, suggesting that kubuntu receives little, if no, attention. Reviews like that from supposed allies must cause damage. Perhaps if you as one of the developers were able to speak to the editorial staff, that might help. Firstly, to get a full explanation as to why they say what they do, so that you can do something about it, and secondly to get the message out that something is actually being done to improve things. Don't know how that would square with your role though, especially as Jono Bacon writes for the mag!

[sixonetonoffun]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

Don't hold back Bruce lmao!

On the other side of the coin as a user, Kubuntu has going for it Buntu repositories. Which are really well maintained overall.
Users can ride the bleeding edge with the dev releases or stay on the saner side with the "LTS" releases.

The default KDE configuration seems to be to blame for a lot of issues I see here. Akonadi just isn't finished thats all there is to that. Its limping along but it will improve. But Neomuk/Strigi shouldn't even be activated by default. (Mepis doesn't) just because its there doesn't mean it should be a default. I'd rather see one post about how to enable it then 50 on how to tweak it or disable it!

Devices and drivers are easier to find and install in Kubuntu then any other Debian based distro I've tried. Better then Debian for a user who isn't interested in learning the niceties of rebuilding kernels and kernel modules every time they need to get into a different driver. Isn't flawless and isn't all Buntu the people posting the launchpad repositories like ~xorg-edgers and samrog131 provide a lot of fixes for users like me.

Grub2/Plymouth splashy sux! Sorry guys but I'd rather wait for a couple extra seconds and get slow stable boot that I can manage to edit to my preferences. (I'm sure this will improve but it is a little bit of a learning curve + overkill IMHO) Really hope to see some kind of GUI for this soon!

All the pieces are here kde 4.4.4 would have been a much better LTS release but... its here now. Hope it gets into the spins soon it'd be silly not too!

I'd like to see more attention to configuring but really other then a few little breakages I created myself I'm happy with the stability and usability of Kubuntu 10.04 here.

Other kde distros are having kde issues too its not just Kubuntu though I still maintain more attention to the default install could save a lot of headaches.

But WTF to I know anyway they are the experts after all.

I would like to know where is my working preload!!!!!!! I miss it much...

[Goeroeboeroe]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

After working for a few days with Mepis, I've seen Mepis has some small issues too. Like probably every distro.
I liked 8.04 a bit more, but also because I was used to it. Anyway, I can do some work again finally. I'm still busy installing XP on VirtualBox. I only use it for IE 7, but installing XP for only IE 7 takes more time as installing the whole Mepis... Virusscanner, firewall, anti-spyware, defragment, cleaning register, update-boot-update-boot-update-boot-something went wrong the update was not installed restart-update-whooah!
Overall I think Kubuntu is a nice distro. I've used it from 6.04 without any big problem. 10.04 + nvidia-driver+ KDE4 + my machine (+ my head?) just is a bad combination, I guess.
When starting with 6.04 I tried some distros, and Ik liked Kubuntu the most.

[MoonRise]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

update-boot-update-boot-update-boot-something went wrong the update was not installed restart-update-whooah!

[Bruce]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

update-boot-update-boot-update-boot-something went wrong the update was not installed restart-update-whooah!

Scrub a dub dub Three Men In A Tub,
And who do you think they be?
The butcher, the baker, the Microsoft maker
Scrub 'em up, one, two three!

[Goeroeboeroe]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

I thought to get some sympathy and love and understanding here, installing Windows This was a good moment to reinstall the whole thing, it was getting too slow.
Ah, well, Linux users, just jealous. You know, Windows is such a sophisticated, sensitive, good willing, lovely system, it's quite logical it sometimes gets a nervous breakdown. That only proofs it's lovely sensitive. If I sneeze it's got a virus, but so do babies. And everybody loves babies.
Linux even doesn't have a registry, that fabulous invention made by the pharmaceutical industry to sell tranquilizers. Linux only thinks about itself, not about other industries like social Windows does. Think about all the jobs Windows gives to antivirus-companies, criminals, criminal-fighters, ...
In four years of Linux I never ever had one big issue (except not being able to install 10.04). That's the ultimate proof how hard and anti-social Linux is. Nothing can destroy it. Totally unfeeling.
If I think about the time I was repairing systems for elder people... Really nice how Windows showed them it also had weaknesses, so the elder people didn't feel too sad about not being completely healthy themselves anymore.
Glad installing can happen in the background. Just installed the update for the update for servicepack 3, which was the update for ... Now I'm going to do a sundance to get some help from above so everything keeps going well. A sundance is the kind of sophisticated technique Windows understands best, I guess.

[MoonRise]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

If I sneeze it's got a virus, but so do babies. And everybody loves babies.

Actually that is really a good analogy there. I like that!

[apachelogger]

Re: Leaving Kubuntu after 4 years using it and the reason why

Akonadi crashed at every other logout.

What I find interesting about this is that there is no bug report about it? This is particularly interesting because I am the one trying to resolve Akonadi's current deployment issues in Kubuntu, so I suppose I should know about this type of defect if it were brought to our attention at some point.

The boot splashes disappears or is at a 1982 resolution if you change a driver.

That is a genuine problem with graphics drivers on Linux. That however is a problem at large and not just specific to Kubuntu it might however very well be that you only experienced it on Kubuntu because of two very factors. First of all Kubuntu and Ubuntu at large is trying to provide the smoothest desktop experience we are capable to provide, which also implies boldly going where no one went before and expose new ways of using existing technology or use new technology to begin with. Now since I think you are refering to 10.04 you are
perhaps experiencing issues with plymouth which is a (considerable) new software, not just in Kubuntu. So any and all issues with it should be brought to the attention of the developers by reporting appropriate bug reports. I can assure you that the bootsplash works just fine on all machines I do have access to, and I suppose this is the same for about every other developer of Kubuntu and Ubuntu. But we are only so many and largely exceeded by the amount of available hardware setups in the real world. Without actual field feedback it is close to impossible to provide a smooth boot experience on as many systems as possible.

Configuration of running services is not a simple thing, stopping running services is not a simple thing.

This claim I cannot understand at all. Almost all core supported services are (if feasible) configurable via simplified configuration files in /etc/default/. Granted we do not provide graphical applications to do this, but this is because of a general design decision of having sane defaults. Further more you can of course configure any system service in the regular way for the particular service (like say Apache configuration).
As for the stopping, perhaps you did not know about the following:
sudo stop service
I do not think it can get much more intuitive or simpler than that. Again I have to mention that this will not be possible via a graphical application of the default setup, also for a general attitude that one should not have services installed that one is not going to use (this is also in line whith our no-open-ports by default philosophy, which is by the way one of the reason we do not ship a SSHD by default).

Package management is a mess and is lacking many features and capabilities lacking in Kubuntu.

For example?
You might get some general informaton on the state of package management at http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/inde...3239#msg233239
Also only today one Kubuntu Developer started playing around with a possible package manager that ought to fill the gap between KPackageKit and Synaptic. Not promising anything though

Power management doesn't work reliably and doesn't behave as expected. (Kubuntu no matter what setting I changed my processor would speed would slow down while plugged in, even though I explicitly set it not to when plugged in.)

This sounds like a serious problem of the ACPI subsystems in combination with your hardware setup. I hope you reported bugs about this before moving on, as mentioned above any bit of bug information on hardware issues can help grately.

I often had force shutdowns and reboots because the system would hang on shutdown. The system could easily be shutdown or rebooted via CLI, indicating it was something to do with the KDE implementation in Kubuntu and it not interacting with system correctly. No log files anywhere indicating a problem.

Generally speaking this should of course not happen Well, really it should not, since KDE's logout mechanism has timeout termination builtin which should (in theory) kill processes that do not want to quit on themselfs. Keeping that in mind I would however think that it was problem with X and/or the graphics driver that you were experiencing. If X goes down or gets stuck before the desktop manager can deploy the shutdown or reboot command the machine will be stuck in this state. This is because the desktop (be it KDE or GNOME or anything else) can generally not invoke those commands directly (after all you will also need to do it via sudo on a terminal), so what is really going on is that the desktop will logout and delegate the display manager to carry out the shutdown or reboot. I hope this was reported too, because since the machine got stuck, the only way an unexperienced user can resolve this is via hardware reset.

(For everyone who is interested, the desktop-delegates-shutdown-to-desktop-manager process is also the reason that KDE will not offer these options in its menu when GDM is configured as display manager.)

Ibus errors when running simple apps, such as Ooo and or skype. No I do not use a foreign language, but the only way to avoid the constant errors was run ibus at each boot.

First of all those are warnings and not errors. Yes they are inconvenient, and they are going to be gone in Kubuntu 10.10. For Kubuntu 10.04 the choice was either not having those warnings or not having working setups for input-method dependent languages. I hope this is an understandable decision though.

Boot loader/grub configuration..............no real easy GUI way to do it, two files to edit or edit one and run a command to change the other, and if you happen to have removed entries you didn't want they will be over written.

Boot loader configuration and easy GUI are mutually exclusive things unless you have the GUI backed up by artifical intelligence that takes care of not breaking things.
The question is of course why one would be wanting to edit the GRUB2 config to begin with, since generally the idea is to have the default setup cover like 99% of all cases. If that is not the case then the defaults might need tweaking. Clearly at the point where we need a GUI for 1% of possible setups something is very wrong from an efficiency POV. Also, you have one file to edit, which is /etc/default/grub and it tells you there what command to run afterwards.
We also had a graphical application for GRUB, it however arrived only shortly before we switched to GRUB2 and ever since no one felt the compelling need to port it. So if someone were to do that, I am quite sure we would offer it again, but probably not in the default installation.

In short here were my experiences. It felt like Kubuntu is hodgepodged together on-top of a system it wasn't intended to run on.

I agree, Kubuntu does not seem to be made for you hardware, especially your graphics card.