Microsoft, applications vs behavior - split from another topic

[dibl]

I don't think you're missing all that much with Win7

Win 7 is OK as long as you keep it in a box ...

[img width=400 height=300]http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1909/comizwin7.png[/img]

[Snowhog]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

What's the only thing one doesn't want running 'out-of-the-box' in Linux?

Windows!

[Kyuuketsuki]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

I realise I made a remark that opened the door but it disturbs me that it has come to this in a thread/forum that is supposed to be about helping people.

IMO Windows is not only an entirely competent OS in it's own right (so are Linux and OS-X) but for whatever reason (and you can argue the why's, wherefore's, should be's and wanna be's as much as you like) it remains, by far and then some, the most popular desktop OS in the world ... despite the marketing, that wouldn't be so if it hadn't got many strengths. My criticisms were largely aesthetic and Linux isn't all that easy in that respect ... to Windows credit I and any of my family can be up and running (doing things that are productive) with any version within an hour or so of install and, whilst I am sure many of you could say the same about your favourite OS, that isn't true for me of Linux as evidenced by the fact that I built this Kubuntu system 2 days ago and I'm still doing nothing productive (granted part of that is lack of knowledge and surety as to how/where to go next).

Do me (do all your potential ex-MS recruits) a favour and don't turn this into an MS bitchfest ... it's the one thing that is GUARANTEED to turn me back to MS.

Now (and many thanks to both GreyGeek & Fintan for their constructive support), if anyone can answer some of my later questions?

Kyu

[Kyuuketsuki]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

The last time I used the free version of VMPlayer (using http://www.easyvmx.com/ to create the necessary virtual HD template) it included USB connections. The only problem I have with it is that it installs two virtual ethernet connections at boot time. VBox doesn't.

The primary reason for me wanting to use VB was USB ... I guess I'll have to try VMP.

Thanks

Kyu

[Snowhog]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

Do me (do all your potential ex-MS recruits) a favour and don't turn this into an MS bitchfest ... it's the one thing that is GUARANTEED to turn me back to MS.

You've only arrived here in KFN, so you don't know (yet) the 'personalities' of the KFN 'regulars'. You noted, I'm sure, that dibl is running Windows, in a VMware Player VM, as shown in his screenshot? I also use Windows (XP Pro), and as dibl, in a VMware Player VM. Windows has it's place (no pun intended), and is why I still use it.

Most of the members who are very active here in KFN are not Windows 'bashers.' Do we prefer not to use/support Windows? Certainly. Do we look with disdain upon those who use Windows? No. Do we poke fun at Windows? Yes.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

Snowhog,

You've only arrived here in KFN, so you don't know (yet) the 'personalities' of the KFN 'regulars'. You noted, I'm sure, that dibl is running Windows, in a VMware Player VM, as shown in his screenshot? I also use Windows (XP Pro), and as dibl, in a VMware Player VM. Windows has it's place (no pun intended), and is why I still use it.

I may well be new here at the Kubuntu forums but I am NOT new to forums, not new to the world of Linux nor to the communities that support it and as such am well aware of the tendency of some Linux people to bitch and/or evangelise ... I value objectivity & I am neither unobservant or gullible.

You also only have to go check out my atheism site to know I'm irritable (at a great many things), to know I am both lucid & opinionated as well as willing & able to back my views up!

Most of the members who are very active here in KFN are not Windows 'bashers.' Do we prefer not to use/support Windows? Certainly. Do we look with disdain upon those who use Windows? No. Do we poke fun at Windows? Yes.

I'm sure that's true and no, I absolutely support your right to say what you want about MS but this is not the place for that kind of stuff (I'm having issues with Kubuntu configuration, that's why I joined this community, that's why I started this thread and others) ... if you wanna take the piss out of MS please go do it in someone else's thread!!!!

Kyu

[Fintan]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

The primary reason for me wanting to use VB was USB ... I guess I'll have to try VMP.

As I believe mentioned somewhere above, usb works fine with my vmp xp/win7 guests.
If you have any specifics, just ask

Give it a whirl.

As for bashing, I have been here for a while and haven't seen the type of bashing here you are
referring to and have seen on other forums.

Yes, some of us (me included ) have a bit of humor, but nothing in the negative.

[dibl]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

it disturbs me that it has come to this in a thread/forum that is supposed to be about helping people.

A little light-hearted poke at Windows, on a Linux forum, is hardly a good reason to suffer disturbance -- it should absolutely be expected.

As for help, the graphic conveys visually that others on this forum including myself actually do need to use Windows on our Linux boxes. My personal preference is VMWare Player, because of the USB support. More information is here:

http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/inde...opic=3095339.0

You didn't describe the Windows applications that you hope to use. Apps that depend on direct access to the underlying hardware (sound card, GPU, memory, etc.) may lead to disappointment. You don't get to use your real hardware, you get a "virtual" sound card, GPU, disk drive, etc. In my situation, I need a special-purpose MS Visual FoxPro application and it runs fine, along with a complementary web site authoring package that's not available for Linux. But I wouldn't advise high-end graphics work or audio/video editing work on a VM -- they won't do as well for those tasks as a native Windows installation on the same hardware.

I have also recently (in the past couple of weeks) run into a problem with USB headphones on my VMs. I haven't had time to research it, but I believe there is some conflict between the newer Linux kernels and the current version of VMWare, that causes a lockup of the USB bus. The issue appears to be limited to headphones. If you happen to be using a USB mouse and a USB keyboard when your USB bus locks, you've got a very unhappy situation on your hands. :P

Hope this helps.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

A little light-hearted poke at Windows, on a Linux forum, is hardly a good reason to suffer disturbance -- it should absolutely be expected.

As for bashing, I have been here for a while and haven't seen the type of bashing here you are referring to and have seen on other forums.

Fair enough ... my bad!

Kyu

[GreyGeek]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

.....
IMO Windows is not only an entirely competent OS in it's own right...
...

I agree, depending on which version of Windows you are referring to, and as long as an Internet connection isn't included in the competency test. Where I used to work they found that they only way they could allow employees to connect to the Internet from their Windows workstations (it was a Windows shop with 6 MSCE keeping a mix of Win9x, Win2k and XP running) was to allow connections only through a Linux proxy server running a $28K firewall/AV product. Even then, that didn't stop the occasional employee from bringing in a floppy or CD and starting a pandemic among the 400 workstations.

I used Windows professionally from Windows 287 through Win 3.11 FWG and into Win95. Even after I switched to Linux I continued to use Win98, NT 3.5, NT 4.0, Win2K and XP professionally, in addition to Linux. I retired two years ago so I was never faced with the task of using VISTA or Win7 professionally. This Sony VAIO VGN-FW140E/H notebook came with VISTA pre-installed, and it was almost as unreliable as Win95 on my old Sony desktop. My experience with Win95 came when I purchased a new Sony VAIO desktop on Dec 29, 1997 and it came preinstalled with Win95. My previous desktop was running OS/2 with Win3.11 FWG running under the DOS box OS/2 provided. Because Sony crashed so often that between Jan 1, 1998 and May 1, 1998, I had to reinstall it 5 times. I lost many hours redoing work and watching Win95 reboot. Discouraged, I went to Barnes & Nobel looking for a new copy of OS/2 to replace Win95. There I saw a book titled "Learn Linux in 24 Hours", for $25. It had a CDROM of Red Hat 5.0 in the back. A year before I had read "The Unix Hater's Handbook" and decided I didn't want to learn Unix. But, out of curiosity and the fact that RH was free, I installed it as a dual boot with Win95 and discovered that the Sony was rock solid stable, as was RH 5.0. That's when I realized that the problem was Win95 and not the Sony. It took me about 30 hours to "learn" Linux, and I am still learning.

Had Win95 been as reliable as XP SP3 I doubt I would ever have tried Linux, nor would I have paid any attention to Microsoft ethics. IMO, XP SP3 is still the best Windows OS Microsoft ever produced. I'm hoping that my legally purchased CDROM version never gets too scratched to load as a guest OS, or that it doesn't become so antiquated that it won't connect with the latest hardware... i.e., the peripheral makers continue to make drivers for the XP.

I separate Microsoft's products from Microsoft's corporate behavior, especially James Plamondon's "Technical Evangelists" group, whose corporate sponsored activities are outlined here and in its sublinks.

IMO, "bashing" is criticism not based on facts, hence unjustified. That kind of criticism is not distinguishable from lying. Criticism based on facts cannot be bashing and is not lying or exaggeration.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

I agree ...

I have to say I genuinely don't get why it is that people supposedly have so many issues (technical) with Windows, despite being a techno-geek, perhaps I just don't do much that will upset it (virtualisation, surfing, CD rips, movie watching) and I certainly visit more than a few dodgy sites and, MS Office 2K7 aside, I use virtually nothing but open-source/free software! Not that it doesn't have faults but overall I find Windows friendly, easy to use and (if respected the way every OS should be ... my opinion) free from issues. Mine was an issue with shutting down (it was taking ages) and aesthetics ... but hey ho.

Sorry guys, whilst I appreciate your help I have to cut and run, I needed to get on with things so I just gave up and put Win 7 back on ... I will probably continue to play with Kubuntu in virtual

Kyu

[Fintan]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

Me thinks we all know where this is heading...yohoo, yohoo, set the colors......

[oshunluvr]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

Just want to throw my 2cents in -

I use virtualbox (aka vbox) and have for quite a while. I used vmware a long time ago but have never had a reason to try it again.

Some answers:
As far as I know: vbox doesn't directly support dual monitors in the sense that it doesn't output to dual video ports. The hardware is virtualized. It does support the extended desktop created by linux using nvidia twinview (see attachment) and it will output to remote displays, although I've never tried that. I will say with my system, there is a noticable slow-down in video response if I drag the XP window to a very large non-standard size. If I select "fullscreen mode" it fills only the monitor it current resides in rather than the whole desktop. This can be useful if you wish to run more than one vm side-by-side.

Guest additions are installed on your host system automatically - to install it to a guest system there is a pull down titled "Devices" that has "Install Guest Additions" at the bottom of the list.

Virtualbox is in your Kmenu under System. Newly installed programs take a few seconds before they appear in the menu.

As far as your XP sp3 disk - create an .iso of it right away before it gets scratched. It's easier to install to a vm from an iso anyway.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

Me thinks we all know where this is heading...yohoo, yohoo, set the colors......

Sorry? I don't understand.

Virtualbox is in your Kmenu under System. Newly installed programs take a few seconds before they appear in the menu.

I admit I could just be "being thick" but I genuinely couldn't find a shortcut ... I had to create my own. Thanks anyway

That's a nice system you got there ... I admit I haven't quite dared overclock even though the CPU I have was bought on eBay and was o/c's by the seller.

Kyu

[GreyGeek]

Microsoft, applications vs behavior

....
I have to say I genuinely don't get why it is that people supposedly have so many issues (technical) with Windows,
....

For the most part the problem isn't "people", it is Microsoft's policy regarding announcements of security holes in their software. Microsoft has bludgeoned security workers into silence, on pain of a lawsuit, if they publicize any security holes they discover. Microsoft sits on this information for days, months, weeks, years and sometimes forever. It's only when they finally fix a security hole, in their own good time and, apparently, to the least harm of their income stream, that they announce both the hole and the patch on the same day. Then they have the hubris to claim zero-day patches.

Windows users, on the other hand, are kept in the dark about the fact that multiple simultaneous security holes in their OS is exposing their personal information and finances to theft. Many, many machines, despite the fact that their owners keep AV subscriptions up to date (and many more don't), are compromised to such an extent that bot farms holding more than a million Windows zombies exist.

Contrast that with the FOSS security hole policy: Announce it ASAP and publish a patch ASAP. Very few security holes last more than a few hours to a few days, and Linux users are informed about them so they have the opportunity to avoid the holes. For example, when a hole was announced in FireFox last year I used Konqueror until a fixed FireFox appeared in the repository, which was only a couple days later. I could have downloaded FireFox from their website within a day, but didn't see the need. I could have installed Opera, too. The point is, I WAS INFORMED ASAP of the hole and could take necessary steps to protect my system.