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    HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

    Yet another new user of Kubuntu is off wondering through the quagmire of the video driver swamp.

    When HAL correctly divines your video chip and configures it for maximum 3D accelerated performance all is well in your Kubuntu land. However, for a large number of users of the newest, and many of the older laptops, HAL fails miserably, leaving the user to attempt what the individual mentioned above is trying, settle with VESA (if they can trick HAL into using it) or to move to another distro which solves the video configuration problems in a more practical (and sane) way. Barring that, they return to Windows and become sources of postings which say "Linux isn't ready for the desktop yet."

    VERY FEW people have the skill and/or the will to recompile the kernel to add support for their video chip, IF such is possible. After that, they either have to pin their custom kernel to avoid having an update replace it, or they have to recompile each new kernel as it is released. EVEN fewer people want to take the time to do that. After all, the buzz word for Kubuntu (and other distros) is that it "just works". Sometimes a distro DOESN'T "just work", and that is when the user needs an easy to use graphical configuration tool (console graphic or vesa) which allows them to choose their video chip, their resolution, their 3D setting, and then test it without locking up their system. In other words, the way it USED to be done before HAL came on the scene. HAL is useful and should be used, but a better backup system should be in place in case HAL doesn't do its job. That's what the "-high" option in dpkg was for, before it was removed. X and gtf make a POOR substitute for a graphical configuration tool. Might as well tell those that must stoop to using those tools to "RTFM" ... the effect is the same.

    Canonical is shooting itself in the foot with its HAL policy. IF HAL fails, it should at least have the decency to set up a VESA screen for users to get to a functioning desktop, or to fall back on it if their reconfigurations fail.



    "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
    – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

    #2
    Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

    Xorg 1.8 will not use hal - I think ubuntu 10.4 won't have hal at all in the system, automount and such stuff being handled by udev. kubuntu on the other hand will continue to use hal as kde needs it - but Xorg won't, so perhaps there will be improvement.

    Or not, as the case may be...
    Once your problem is solved please mark the topic of the first post as SOLVED so others know and can benefit from your experience! / FAQ

    Comment


      #3
      Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

      I was aware that HAL was being depreciated in favor of libgudev and policykit in Ubuntu, but HAL is still being used in Kubuntu LL. I also am not sure what Upstart is supposed to do in the future, but Canonical is definitely blazing its own trail.

      What ever the Kubuntu dev crew decides (or is forced) to do, having an easy-to-use xorg.conf gui generation tool is important for its future, but the problem of creating a working accelerated desktop on legacy equipment remains.


      I read yesterday that NVIDIA announced on March 26th that it was no longer supporting Open Source Linux video drivers.
      NVIDIA has decided to deprecate this open-source driver of theirs. No, NVIDIA is not working on a new driver. No, NVIDIA is not going to support the Nouveau project. Instead, NVIDIA now just recommends its users use the X.Org VESA driver to get to NVIDIA.com when installing Linux so they can install their proprietary driver.
      I suspect that their next step is to monetize their proprietary Linux driver, i.e., charge a fee for a license to use it. I've had past experience with monetized video and sound drivers. Basically, if libc changes version, or the kernel gets too far away from what the proprietary driver works with, a new license fee will be required. Linux users will be paying repeatedly for an NVIDIA driver to drive the same chip in the same laptop or desktop. Then there is the problem with the current legacy video chips. Old proprietary drivers refuse to install with new kernels and/or libc libraries. The source of the drivers are not available so they cannot be modified to work with the new distros. New laptops may have to wait months for video chip makers to release a working 3D accelerated video driver.

      Catch-22.
      "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
      – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

        Originally posted by GreyGeek

        I suspect that their next step is to monetize their proprietary Linux driver, i.e., charge a fee for a license to use it.
        Geez I hope that suspicion turns out to be unfounded. It seems only recently, but in fact it was 4 years ago when I first began playing with a Ubuntu Live CD, on my desktop system at the time. That computer had a reasonably current motherboard but a fairly low-end ATI card, and I had no end of frustration trying to get anything more than VESA out of it. So when I built myself a new box to install Kubuntu on, I made sure and got an Nvidia card for it, and was ever so relieved at the ease with which its 3D capabilities could be had, via the proprietary driver.

        Now, it seems we have come almost full circle -- ATI is releasing documentation to enable open source drivers, and Nvidia is getting squirrely about it.

        I'm crossing my fingers that the 26 March announcement is being over-interpreted. Maybe they just don't see the point of using expensive resources to support the old "nv" driver, and will instead concentrate on their infamous "binary blob". I'm pragmatic about the "blob" -- as long as it works well, they can keep their secret interface. But if they jack me around .... well, I've already demonstrated my willingness to switch vendors.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

          I've located the original announcement.
          Date: 2010-03-26 20:43:49 GMT (2 days, 21 hours and 56 minutes ago)

          Historically, NVIDIA developed and maintained the xf86-video-nv X driver,
          primarily as a very minimal driver that works "well enough" to give
          users accelerated X rendering from the time they install their Linux
          distribution until the time they install the NVIDIA driver available
          from nvidia.com [1].

          The xf86-video-nv driver intentionally has a very small feature set,
          both to minimize the maintenance cost of this driver, and to minimize
          exposure of any IP NVIDIA might consider sensitive.

          However, the rendering needs of a modern X Window System desktop have
          changed drastically in recent years to rely heavily on the X Render
          extension, which is not well accelerated in the nv driver. At this point,
          on a modern X desktop the nv driver does not offer much beyond what is
          provided by the stock VESA X driver
          . Providing proper Render acceleration
          in the nv driver would be a substantial task, and would require diverting
          significant engineering resources away from NVIDIA's nvidia.com driver.


          For this reason, NVIDIA is dropping support, on new GPUs, for the
          xf86-video-nv driver.

          Details:

          - NVIDIA will continue to support the existing functionality and
          existing level of acceleration in the nv driver for existing GPUs,
          on existing, and (within reason) future, X server versions.


          - NVIDIA will not support the xf86-video-nv driver on Fermi or
          later GPUs.

          - NVIDIA will not support DisplayPort, on any GPU, in the
          xf86-video-nv driver.

          Our advice to owners of NVIDIA GPUs running Linux is to use the VESA X
          driver from the time of Linux distribution installation until they can
          download and install the NVIDIA Linux driver from their distribution
          repositories or from nvidia.com.

          We believe that focusing our Linux driver engineering efforts exclusively
          on the NVIDIA driver, in order to leverage NVIDIA's cross-platform
          graphics driver code base, is the optimal route for the best possible
          user experience for NVIDIA Linux users.

          Thanks,
          Andy Ritger

          [1] http://www.nvidia.com/object/unix.html
          _______________________________________________
          xorg <at> lists.freedesktop.org: X.Org support
          Archives: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg
          Info: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
          I saw a post on Slashdot (which I can't relocate right now) by an Nouveau developer stating that the developers depended extensively on NVIDIA updating the nv driver, so they could reverse engineer the changes and add them to the Nouveau driver. Now, it seems that avenue won't be open so the Nouveau driver will become totally dependent on the 2 or 3 developers who know how to interpret the blob interactions with memory. So, this announcement effectively kills Nouveau development as well, if what he says is true.

          From the Nouveau homepage is status report:
          Current Status

          Quick overview :

          * KernelModeSetting (KMS) is mandatory
          * Suspend and resume is working for many chips
          * 2-D support is in fairly good shape with EXA acceleration, Xv and Randr12 (dual-head, rotations, etc.).
          * Any 3-D functionality that might exist is still unsupported. Do not ask for instructions to try it. But you can read GalliumHowto in case you are brave enough.

          See the status matrix for functionality supported on each chipset.
          which doesn't give much hope.

          I am not sure ATI's support is much better. When the GM45 chip was announced in June of 2008, ATI made a lot of Penguin brownie points by stating that it was releasing the Linux source for the driver at the same time! That promise encouraged me to buy this laptop (Sony VAIO VGN-FW140E) in August, thinking I would have 3D acceleration support "out of the box". I chose Mandriva 2009 PWP beta in the late fall of 2008 because it claimed to include the specific version of the Intel driver which supported the GM45. As it turned out, that driver supported SOME GM45 chips on SOME laptops, but not mine or many others. It appears that the PC OEM vendors have a LOT of control as to just how a chip is implemented on their mobo. I filed a bug report with the xorg bugzilla in September of 2008 and worked with them testing a variety of changes and "fixes". In February of 2009 (EIGHT MONTHS after the Intel announcement) the Xorg developer I was working with found a "fix" that appeared to work with a certain kernel. I figured I had at least 3 or more months to wait before the Intel video package and kernel filtered down from the Xorg developers and appeared in the Mandriva repository. Meanwhile, I heard that Kubuntu was featuring a version of KDE4 that Mandriva would not move to until this year, so I tried it. I was surprised to see accelerated video in the Kubuntu LiveCD. It was rough. It ran some programs well but not others. But, it was a start. Now, 13 months later, and almost two years since the Intel announcement, I have what I consider decent working 3D acceleration. Unfortunately, the way the distro and kernel versions are progressing, the GM45 will be a "legacy" chip in 3 more years, and I will have to stay with KLL or PCLOS 2010 forever, or buy a new laptop.

          Right now my mood is to ride this Sony/LL combo till Sony's legs fall off.
          "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
          – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

            Originally posted by GreyGeek


            We believe that focusing our Linux driver engineering efforts exclusively
            on the NVIDIA driver, in order to leverage NVIDIA's cross-platform
            graphics driver code base, is the optimal route for the best possible
            user experience for NVIDIA Linux users.

            That's what I hope is the true and complete motivation for their move. I'm taking it at face value, until I learn otherwise.

            Thanks, GG!

            Comment


              #7
              Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

              Originally posted by GreyGeek
              What ever the Kubuntu dev crew decides (or is forced) to do, having an easy-to-use xorg.conf gui generation tool is important for its future, but the problem of creating a working accelerated desktop on legacy equipment remains.
              Quite right, but is also a devilishly difficult thing with to do what is out in the field. I wonder (and knowing nothing about the internals) how Xorg is going to improve on hal which has always done a decent job for me. But then again, I am not familiar with the complaints in kubuntuforums.

              I had to google "accelerated desktop" to get an idea what it means - is it 3D? If so, let old hardware run without compositing. No accelerated desktop for old stuff. Main thing is that it runs afaic.

              As for NVIDIA's latest announcement, I reckon it makes sense. They've discontinued a pointless project. Read: realised they cannot control OS and have shut up shop. All I can say to ATI is: come and get us, here is millions of customers and a huge chance for rapid and free development
              Once your problem is solved please mark the topic of the first post as SOLVED so others know and can benefit from your experience! / FAQ

              Comment


                #8
                Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

                I'd assume that ATI isn't making it's bread and butter money on the drivers, but rather, on their video cards. If they ensure their proprietary drivers will work with Linux, then Linux users will continue to buy their video cards.
                Windows no longer obstructs my view.
                Using Kubuntu Linux since March 23, 2007.
                "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data." - Sherlock Holmes

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

                  IMO the biggest problem with the proprietary drivers is that the support for older cards will always get dropped eventually (after all, the manufacturers are in the business of selling new cards). So the open source drivers are the only option for many people.

                  Luckily the open source drivers for ati cards are quite good (especially on older hardware). And I wish the best for nouveau drivers as well (the nv drivers were never that great).

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

                    Originally posted by kubicle
                    ...
                    Luckily the open source drivers for ati cards are quite good (especially on older hardware). And I wish the best for nouveau drivers as well (the nv drivers were never that great).
                    Or not!

                    It was precisely because ONLY the VESA driver would work on the ATI XPRESS 200M video chip in the Gateway MX6450 laptop I installed PCLOS on that I started this thread. As I reported, NONE of the Catalysts or other ATI drivers offered on or before 2008 would work because of library and kernel incompatibilities, and ATI proprietary drivers after 2008 don't support the XPRESS 200 series chip. Catch-22. I preferred to install Kubuntu LL, and while all of the 3-27, 3-26, 3-25 and 2-28 KLL daily LiveCD releases booted into a LiveCD desktop (with VESA), none of them would install. They all died at some line in the kde_ui.py, called by the install wizard.

                    It's the failure of current ATI proprietary Catalyst drivers to support cards over 4 years old, and the failure of older Catalyst drivers to support newer libraries and kernels that leads to the video driver problem.

                    There are some recent and interesting links to info about the kernel, DRM (Digital Rendering Management), LKM and other stuff here, here and here. Basically, they are adding in new, tossing out the old, and generally focusing on adding and improving 3G stuff.
                    "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
                    – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

                      Originally posted by GreyGeek
                      Originally posted by kubicle
                      ...
                      Luckily the open source drivers for ati cards are quite good (especially on older hardware). And I wish the best for nouveau drivers as well (the nv drivers were never that great).
                      Or not!

                      It was precisely because ONLY the VESA driver would work on the ATI XPRESS 200M video chip in the Gateway MX6450 laptop I installed PCLOS on that I started this thread. As I reported, NONE of the Catalysts or other ATI drivers offered on or before 2008 would work because of library and kernel incompatibilities, and ATI proprietary drivers after 2008 don't support the XPRESS 200 series chip. Catch-22. I preferred to install Kubuntu LL, and while all of the 3-27, 3-26, 3-25 and 2-28 KLL daily LiveCD releases booted into a LiveCD desktop (with VESA), none of them would install. They all died at some line in the kde_ui.py, called by the install wizard.

                      It's the failure of current ATI proprietary Catalyst drivers to support cards over 4 years old, and the failure of older Catalyst drivers to support newer libraries and kernels that leads to the video driver problem.
                      Err...I was talking about the open source drivers for ati cards, not the proprietary drivers (fglrx/Catalyst). My point was exactly that the proprietary drivers won't support cards indefinitely.

                      ATI XPRESS 200M cards are supported by the open source drivers, but there can certainly be bugs (especially after the recent changes to the driver), and proper configuration may be tricky.

                      from 'man radeon':
                      SUPPORTED HARDWARE
                      The radeon driver supports PCI, AGP, and PCIE video cards based on the following ATI chips:
                      ...
                      RS400/RS480 Radeon XPRESS 200(M)/1100 IGP
                      ...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

                        Originally posted by kubicle
                        ......
                        ATI XPRESS 200M cards are supported by the open source drivers, but there can certainly be bugs (especially after the recent changes to the driver), and proper configuration may be tricky.

                        from 'man radeon':
                        SUPPORTED HARDWARE
                        The radeon driver supports PCI, AGP, and PCIE video cards based on the following ATI chips:
                        ...
                        RS400/RS480 Radeon XPRESS 200(M)/1100 IGP
                        ...
                        Tricky is an understatement! I couldn't test the "radeon" driver in KLL because the installer crashed on every LiveCD I tried. On PCLOS the "radeon" driver gives a hard lockup, requiring the VESA boot to recover the VESA driver, the only one which I've found that works, so far. In PCLOS neither the generic ati driver or any of the Radeon drivers (that give a colored test screen) actually result in an xorg.conf file that contains anything but the vesa driver.
                        "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
                        – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

                          Originally posted by GreyGeek
                          Tricky is an understatement!
                          It certainly is in some cases, sometimes driver configuration borders on black magic. This is true to an extent with all drivers, but especially so with the radeon driver (probably because it supports such a wide range of cards)

                          I couldn't test the "radeon" driver in KLL because the installer crashed on every LiveCD I tried. On PCLOS the "radeon" driver gives a hard lockup, requiring the VESA boot to recover the VESA driver, the only one which I've found that works, so far. In PCLOS neither the generic ati driver or any of the Radeon drivers (that give a colored test screen) actually result in an xorg.conf file that contains anything but the vesa driver.
                          Installation problems may also be caused by bugs in the installer (not uncommon for beta), have you tried the Alternate installation CD, which has a text mode installer?

                          One thing with the radeon drivers that can cause problems with older ati cards is KMS (kernel mode setting), so once you've configured your system to use the radeon driver, you should definitely try booting with 'nomodeset' kernel option.

                          Also, Xorg logs can provide clues if (and why) there are problems with the driver.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

                            Thanks for the tips, Kubicle, but I decided to bypass the GUI config programs and crafted an xorg.conf file manually. The acceleration rose from ~3 fps to ~30 fps, so all is well now.
                            "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
                            – John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: HAL and Kubuntu's video paradigm

                              Originally posted by GreyGeek
                              Thanks for the tips, Kubicle, but I decided to bypass the GUI config programs and crafted an xorg.conf file manually. The acceleration rose from ~3 fps to ~30 fps, so all is well now.
                              Good to hear...going back to the basics is a good way forward when hitting a wall. Which GUI config program are you referring to, a PCLOS tool?

                              Comment

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