Mark Shuttlesworth VS Bradly H Kuhn

[GreyGeek]

Not All Copyright Assignment is Created Equal

Key points:

* FSF promises to never make their software proprietary. Shuttleworth claims that "All copyright assignment agreements empower dual licensing, and relicensing", but that is simply a false statement if you include FSF in the “All”. FSF promises to never proprietarize its versions of the software assigned to it and always release its versions of the software under Free Software licenses.
* Non-profits have a different duty to the public. For-profit companies have one duty: to make money for their owners and/or shareholders. Non-profit organizations, by contrast, are chartered to carry out the public good. Therefore, they cannot liberally ignore what's in the public good just because it makes some money. An organization like FSF, which has a public charter that explicitly says that it seeks to advance software freedom would fail to carry out its public mission if it engaged in proprietary relicensing.

[dibl]

Re: Mark Shuttlesworth VS Bradly H Kuhn

It looks like Shuttleworth's main point (and first) was the desirability of a standard assignment agreement. That's not a crazy goal to talk about. Those other quotes are pulled from page 2 or 3 of his interview. Bradley Kuhn seems to really be on a mission here ...

[Telengard]

Re: Mark Shuttlesworth VS Bradly H Kuhn

GG, nothing the community can say will dissuade Canonical from their increasingly aggressive pursuit of profit. I've had a growing concern for some time now that eventually they will go too far for my taste. It looks like Lucid will probably be the last Kubuntu for me.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Mark Shuttlesworth VS Bradly H Kuhn

While I have no qualms about buying proprietary software if a suitable GPL version does not exist, but I detest being forced into using Microsoft technology as the basis of my Linux desktop because the distro on which the distro I use decided to become dependent on the .NET API.

I have no problems using Kubuntu AS LONG as I can remove libmono* and Kubuntu still works normally. The day I cannot do that without breaking Kubuntu is the day I move to another distro.

Users of the GNOME desktop have a more serious decision to make. IF the June 29th statement that "future Ubuntu desktop remixes will become dependent on MONO" means that the Ubuntu GNOME desktop will fail to run if libmono* is removed from future releases of Ubuntu then GNOME lovers will have to decide which is more important -- running a desktop built with an API which is under the GPL and is not tainted with MS IP, or one which requires the MONO (.NET) API.

If de Icaza and his crew decide to create a version of GNOME built using ONLY MONO and that desktop becomes the default on SUSE and Ubuntu then some developers will probably ignore that MONO fork and continue producing GNOME based on the GTK+. Interestingly, someone else on this forum posted a message concerning a developer's attempt to use the QT4 API to imitate the GTK+ API under C++ and QT4 so that QtCreator can be used to make a version of GNOME sans MONO and the GTK+.

[sithlord48]

Re: Mark Shuttlesworth VS Bradly H Kuhn

free software definition in full
shuttleworth seams like he just wants to make some $'s off his Rather large investment in ubuntu. i could understand.. but i thought GNU/Linux was a hobby he shared with all of us, not a buissness plan. (sadly mistaken )

it would be a terrible thing if the ubuntu gnome becomes standard on debian (after all a lot of ubuntu packages/and code/patches get back ported to debian), it would be a far greater loss if some how QT was manulipulated in a mannor that kubuntu or kde is also forceing mono on our machines. at least for now its safe to install some (if not most) of the current gnome software with out also forcing the need for mono.

and wow does libmono* pull up a lot of a sudden, it used to be only a few packages.

[Telengard]

Re: Mark Shuttlesworth VS Bradly H Kuhn

I'm thinking of moving to a distro where I can easily get finer-grained control over the system. Last time I used Slackware it was such a distro, and Patrick favors KDE too. I would miss APT, but it may be an acceptable trade-off for keeping my freedom.

If I want to keep APT I can always move to Sidux, a rolling release distro based on Debian Sid. I know almost noting else about it.

To keep with my software freedom ideals I might choose Fedora since they've already moved to keep mono out of their repos. My last experience with Fedora was really quite bad though, so I'm not very excited about the idea.

The way I see it I have until the next LTS after Lucid to make my move. That should be enough time for me to clear the fog on these issues and make a solid choice for my next distro. In the meantime, I'm open to suggestions for a distro which closely conforms to Free Software ideals (as much as is practical) and has solid support for KDE4.

Hmm. Maybe this post should have gone in Distro Showdown. Guess I'll leave it to GG to decide whether I've strayed too far away from his original post.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Mark Shuttlesworth VS Bradly H Kuhn

...
If I want to keep APT I can always move to Sidux, a rolling release distro based on Debian Sid. I know almost noting else about it.

After Dibl (or was it Snowhog?) recommended Sidux I downloaded the LiveCD and tried it. I found it rather rough and poorly crafted. (Sorry, Dibl? )

To keep with my software freedom ideals I might choose Fedora since they've already moved to keep mono out of their repos. My last experience with Fedora was really quite bad though, so I'm not very excited about the idea.

I've also downloaded the latest release of 64bit Fedora 12 KDE4 LiveCD. I found it to be VERY WELL DONE, and a very attractive option. I also like the position they've staked out on MONO. What I don't like about it is that it is RPM based and even running the LiveCD I attempted to install an app (I forget which one) and ran into a dependency problem, which was (for me) a problem with RPM based distros. The other problem was that the number of applications in their repository was, IIRC, under 10,000. Also, getting multi-media to play everythng was a task, too. So far, my three options are Fedora, PCLinuxOS (when they move to KDE 4.4) or Debian itself.

The way I see it I have until the next LTS after Lucid to make my move. That should be enough time for me to clear the fog on these issues and make a solid choice for my next distro. In the meantime, I'm open to suggestions for a distro which closely conforms to Free Software ideals (as much as is practical) and has solid support for KDE4.

I see it pretty much the way you do. IF I can remove MONO from Lucid without affecting the behavior of KDE4 then I shall remain with Kubuntu for as long as that is the case.

Hmm. Maybe this post should have gone in Distro Showdown. Guess I'll leave it to GG to decide whether I've strayed too far away from his original post.

Recommendations and showdowns are two different animals (IMO!)

[dibl]

Re: Mark Shuttlesworth VS Bradly H Kuhn

After Dibl (or was it Snowhog?) recommended Sidux I downloaded the LiveCD and tried it. I found it rather rough and poorly crafted. (Sorry, Dibl? )

You'll have to work a LOT harder than that to annoy me, GG! But if you want to PM me with further details, I'd love to hear what was "rough" and why you thought so.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Mark Shuttlesworth VS Bradly H Kuhn

Shucks. With my memory that means I'll have to reboot the livecd and write down my thoughts, if you want an accurate account...

otherwise, off hand:

1) Menu structure seem cluttered, not well organized.
2) IIRC, Systemsetting wasn't the major admin app, and was missing some features.
3) My sound system wasn't detected properly and KMixer auto-detected only two channels. I could add and half dozen or so.
4) My video didn't have acceleration. Stellarium (was it in the repository? If it was it couldn't run)
5) I needed to connect my eth cable so I could get the web. My Intel 1500 wifi wasn't auto-detected.

There were some other, app availability issues, IIRC, but this is the best I could pull out of the mental fog, off hand...
GG

[dibl]

Re: Mark Shuttlesworth VS Bradly H Kuhn

Shucks. With my memory that means I'll have to reboot the livecd and write down my thoughts, if you want an accurate account...

Wow, if you can remember anything long enough to write it down, your memory is better than mine!

otherwise, off hand:

1) Menu structure seem cluttered, not well organized.
2) IIRC, Systemsetting wasn't the major admin app, and was missing some features.

It's pure Debian + straight KDE 4, AFAIK. Kubuntu puts some effort into "integration", so the menus are ... a bit different. sidux doesn't really have what I would call a "central administration" utility, although there are several very useful items:

siduxcc - control center for video settings, general version info, network settings, etc.
bum -- boot-up manager for selection/deselection of start-up services
kernel-remover -- to remove older kernels and their headers and installation packages

3) My sound system wasn't detected properly and KMixer auto-detected only two channels. I could add and half dozen or so.
4) My video didn't have acceleration. Stellarium (was it in the repository? If it was it couldn't run)
5) I needed to connect my eth cable so I could get the web. My Intel 1500 wifi wasn't auto-detected.

I'm surprised that so many hardware items were not automatically configured -- sidux is usually quite good at that. However, the development team are 100% committed to the dfsg, so there's no automatic installation of proprietary firmware, drivers, or non-free stuff. But, they have a truly excellent manual, which includes instructions on how to get the multimedia non-free items, and the proprietary firmware that you might need.

http://manual.sidux.com/

As it turns out, being pure Debian, quite a lot of the guidance in their manual is applicable to other Debian distros, including some aspects of *buntu.

Also, since they are in Germany where the DRM-related laws are apparently used by hungry lawyers to sue anyone caught re-distributing something questionable, they prefer to use IRC to give support on such topics, and they have a very active set of IRC channels. They include an IRC link on the Live CD desktop, for example.


How we got this far off the thread topic, I have no idea ..... I'm stopping now.