Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

[DeathKitten]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

I'm tired of all this Political Correctness crap.

I don't give a flying frell about political correctness. I just want some gorram respect.

Is that too much to ask?

[Adrian]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

I'm tired of all this Political Correctness crap.

I don't give a flying frell about political correctness. I just want some gorram respect.

Is that too much to ask?

Yet you imagine he was talking about you... not everything that goes on in the world is about you... if you didn't imagine it had anything to do with you why would you ask for respect?

[Ole Juul]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

Of course there are problems in our society, but I don't think it's Shuttleworth's fault. If he's a sexist twit, then I vastly prefer that to a jerk.

That may certainly be, but there are others that I am sure feel this is just as relevant to their point of view as others feel about the Novell/opensuse & Microsoft and therefore important to at least recognize so everyone can make intelligent decisions about which distro they support.

I'm sorry, I think I made too strong a statement without being clear enough.

It is indeed relevant - and relevant to everyone. It is relevant to me. I just don't think that bad behaviour is excused by that. Yes, some people are perhaps less aware, and so unintentionally less respectful of others. I can accept a lot of crap from people. However, I would think that a managing editor of Linux Today could perhaps do a little better - regardless of whether Shuttleworth is a sexist twit or not. Shuttleworth's personal philosophy may well be somewhat skewed. I don't think that a rude approach is any solution to that situation, and probably does more harm than good. There are plenty of (even radical) feminists who could do better. In fact, I look forward to what they have to say.

Adrian: I'm tired of all this Political Correctness crap.

I too think that PC is a bore, but with all due respect, that is not the issue here.

[MoonRise]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

It is the generalization. Nothing more. It's the same for nerds and geeks if you think about it. There is always that generalization geeks/nerds aren't "buff", wear glasses blah, blah, blah. So for someone to say in general that guys need to make the OS for women that don't know how to work a computer can be insulting. Broad? Yes, but none the less insulting. Women contribute just as much and do deserve better respect then a generalization. EOR.

[Adrian]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

Women contribute just as much

That's a generalization too, and probably not even true in computing. Beside illustrious examples like Ada Lovelace I really doubt that women contributed just as much. In my computer science class the women to men rate was 1 to 5 at most... assuming that they were twice as good as men (and some were) they still don't push it to 1-to-1. So... let's not pretend that women are "just as" interested in computing as men. While you (and by you I mean any women on this forum) particularly might kick the ass of many other men in any computing issues it doesn't mean that's generally true. Frankly I think that the generalization that Mark used "mothers, grandmothers" is probably closer to the mark... how many of you has a grandmother that is well versed in computing? (that's a rhetorical question, I'm sure that there are few people who had grandmothers who invented the microprocessor in the crowd...)

[DeathKitten]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

I'm tired of all this Political Correctness crap.

I don't give a flying frell about political correctness. I just want some gorram respect.

Is that too much to ask?

Yet you imagine he was talking about you... not everything that goes on in the world is about you... if you didn't imagine it had anything to do with you why would you ask for respect?

He may not talking about me specifically, but excusing comments and sexist assumptions like his, are what lead to me being treated like I'm stupid simply because my reproductive organs are on the inside instead of the outside*. Therefore letting someone in a prominent position like that encourage and perpetuate a sexist stereotype about how women do not understand how computers work, or can't use them unless they're really gorram simple, is insulting to me specifically.

Political correctness drives me up a gorram wall too. There is a difference between expecting a degree of respect, and having to select between two different sets of words simply because one might be a little bit offensive. He's not calling the female half of the gender bad names, he's pretty clearly implying we're worthless, at least technologically speaking. Big difference.

*gratuitous geek reference, points to anyone who gets it.

[MoonRise]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

Well, that is really a wrong view point. I mentioned nothing about numbers or Men vs. Women ratio. I said Women contribute just as much and that refers only to those women who are in computing, of which I know quite a few. Oh, my mom knows how to use a computer and has rebuilt quite few herself. My mother in-law knows how to work with computers. Heck, she created a great Spreadsheet program for my wife's collections. Both women near 70 yrs of age. Again, this is all generalizations on the subject and why this thread should be closed because people have their perceptions of reality and no one's views will line up perfectly with another's. Let's just agree to disagree.

[monte48lowes]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

on the inside instead of the outside*.

*gratuitous geek reference, points to anyone who gets it.

We all have different parents/grandparents. Some could rebuild entire cars, paint a painting, sculpt a sculpture, sew a quilt or bake a loaf of bread. All different skill sets depending on experience and ability. Whether male or female.

Mike

Thanks to http://thesoftwareunderground.com for the logo.

[DeathKitten]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

on the inside instead of the outside*.

*gratuitous geek reference, points to anyone who gets it.

...

Thanks to http://thesoftwareunderground.com for the logo.

Nice try, but the whole reference bit was "because my reproductive organs are on the inside instead of the outside".

[Ole Juul]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

I just wanted to say that I was completely misled by the original article linked to earlier. I had originally thought that Mr. Shuttleworth was just a bit old fashioned in his vocabulary and that eventually he'll catch up - no big deal. After having looked into this story further, and having read Carla Schroder's blog on the matter, things look different than the posted link (above) would imply. In my opinion, this so called "Featured Whitepaper" on itwire seriously mischaracterizes the whole story - I will be studiously avoiding that publication from now on.

Carla Schroder's blog can be found here: http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009...ttlewor-1.html it is indeed worth reading, and makes good points.

The video is here: http://techcast.com/events/linuxcon/shuttleworth/

One only has to watch the first little bit of the video to see that Mr. Shuttleworth is acting inappropriately in a public place. A little colour is good, but talking about ejaculation is over the line in this context and I found it hard to stomach. Read Carla Schroder's article and one can see the whole picture.

[Adrian]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

(colloquial) Persons, irrespective of their genders.
Who are those guys?
(colloquial) A form of address for a group of male persons or a group of mixed male and female persons.
Hi guys!

To quote him using "guys" when the word is usually applied for women too is disingenuous.

The only quote that remains questionable is about "explaining to girls" but that might be understandable if he talks from his perspective. Hey his mother, grandmother, and girlfriend might not be very computer savvy, if he has to explain them what he does it's normal that he expresses like this, I'm sure he doesn't mean that every girl needs to be explained.... but OK, I'm just guessing here.

He's a smart guy (I doubt many people doubt that) he also knows that some women are very capable computer scientists (I doubt he's not aware of that) So... what do you actually claim he implies? Women (in general) are less interested in computers than men -- oh, the horror!!! Wait, this might be actually true... isn't it? If you want to have a honest discussion respond to this question first.

As for becoming offended... I agree with the writer of this article that this "becoming offended" has gone a bit too far: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...e-shazia-mirza

[Ole Juul]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

So... what do you actually claim he implies? Women (in general) are less interested in computers than men -- oh, the horror!!! Wait, this might be actually true... isn't it? If you want to have a honest discussion respond to this question first.

I'll bite.

The discussion is not about what he implies. Yes, it would appear that there are less women interested in computers than men. Perhaps men have more spare time, I don't know, but really, dreaming up fundamental reasons for the disparity is not the answer either. The discussion is about the social effect of what he says - and taking responsibility.

I don't know how you bring up your kids, or how you interact with children in public places like schools, but it is something to think about. Whether your audience is little kids or adults is not really that important, but it is easier to see one's responsibilities as an adult when we talk about children. Therefore I will frame it in those terms. Suppose then you have a boy and girl and you are showing them your computer. Would it be OK if you showed it to the little boy and explained that "this is what boys do - boys understand this". While showing it to the little girl you said something like "this is what boys do - girls usually don't understand". If you think that is OK, then I hope you don't have kids.

These are the kind of subtle things that function in all societies. We are lucky when we hear about them because then we have an opportunity to make corrections that might otherwise have been missed. Individually, they are no big deal. But the subtle force that these things exert on people's futures is enormous. That could possibly give a hint as to the mechanism whereby we have ended up with more "guys" than "dolls" in FOSS.

PS: I read your link, but missed the relevance of "becoming offended".

[Adrian]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

I doubt that nowadays society somehow dis-encourage women to be interested in computers. Your argument might be relevant if you applied it maybe to dolls and toy cars, but frankly I've never heard of somebody telling a girl "that's a computer, it's for boys" or something to that effect. I think computers are taught to kids in a pretty egalitarian way.

Of course I might be wrong... especially that I didn't experienced it is a girl. But I do know that I was interested in things that my sister would never be interested and the other way round without any influence from outside regarding those things -- and actually being anything wrong about it, I have some interests, she has others -- who said we should be interested in the same thing in an equal amount?

I am very skeptical that the smaller number of women in Linux world and computing in general is because the society puts any barriers based on sex: computing if very egalitarian, it's basically "show me the code" -- especially in open source world: kernel or package maintainers don't even have to meet or know each other, they wouldn't even know if the person that submits the code is a woman or a man... On forums we use avatars and nicknames that don't have to say anything about our sex (unless you really want).

[DeathKitten]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

I am very skeptical that the smaller number of women in Linux world and computing in general is because the society puts any barriers based on sex: computing if very egalitarian, it's basically "show me the code" -- especially in open source world: kernel or package maintainers don't even have to meet or know each other, they wouldn't even know if the person that submits the code is a woman or a man... On forums we use avatars and nicknames that don't have to say anything about our sex (unless you really want).

The actual job function is not particularly male or female, but speaking as a female who has been involved with interests and held down jobs that are considered "traditionally male", I can speak about the strong difference in environment. Just subtle differences like the sorts of jokes coworkers will pass around, or how the customers treated me compared to how they treated my male coworkers, can make the largest of difference. If it was just one joke every once in a while, or one customer in the hundreds that treated me different, it wouldn't be a big deal, but when it is constantly happening over and over again, it wears down on you. I personally don't get my feathers ruffled by the off color jokes, frell, I'm usually in the thick of it cracking them myself to the point where I can make others uncomfortable, but I can also say I've observed other women in the same situations where they were not comfortable with it. Regardless of why they're not comfortable with it, it is a byproduct of the environment fostered around things like computers and technology.

Part of the reason I am so offended by Mr. Shuttleworth's sexist remarks is they are what foster this different environment. As long as it is blindly accepted that "oh, some people are just going to be sexist" and dismissed as a quirk that doesn't matter, we're going to continue to maintain this environment that will drive away most women. It's not a matter of telling the girls they can't do tech work these days, it's a matter of the environment being unwelcoming to them. If Shuttleworth were just some programmer hacking away at the kernel, or making the wifi drivers "just work", then it wouldn't even be as big of a deal, but since he is intentionally flaunting himself as an advocate of not only his pet project, ubuntu, but has become (intentionally or not) a face for open source to the unwashed and uninitiated masses, there is now an expectation that he should carry himself just a little bit better, make at least some minor concessions to avoid stepping on the toes of some of the larger audience groups and make efforts to impress people.

Speaking as a person who refuses to be fake, who would rather cut straight to the heart of the matter than beat around the bush, I can understand a desire for him to be himself, to be able to say "that's just who I am, if you can't handle it, that's the door", but he is basically attempting to sell himself and his vision for the ubuntu project and open source development to the world. That means occasionally biting his lip and keeping an opinion to himself, or smiling and finding a less offensive metaphor for something, and occasionally mixing up the genders when making examples of who doesn't understand technology. He doesn't have to lie, he doesn't have to change who he is, he just needs to take a moment and consider how things sound before they come out of his mouth.

[Adrian]

Re: Mark Shuttleworth's keynote at LinuxCon

we're going to continue to maintain this environment that will drive away most women.

Couple of things in this sentence that I would like to question:

1. Is it the environment that drive away most women? (some proof either way would be interesting to see)
2. If yes, is it because of this kind of remarks about low tech "mothers" and "grandmothers"? (again some proof would be interesting)