Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

[Ole Juul]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

Most people outside the net ("real life" lol) know only the name Ubuntu, if they've even heard of Linux. That is not a bad thing. Canonical has done a great job of getting "the alternative" out to the general public and we will all gain in the long run. But I think there is more to it.

I think it has a bit to do with expectation. Many people new to Linux will be coming from the MS-Windows environment, and will not have as high expectations of their desktop. I only have a little experience with Gnome but although it is obviously very polished and functional, it seems not to be as configurable - just like MS-Win in that respect.

KDE on the other hand can expand the desktop experience considerably. Right now I have 29 windows open on 5 desktops. (KDE v3.5) Three of those windows are terminals, two of which connect to other computers. All of that is right at my (left hand) fingertips with Ctrl-Fx and Alt-Tab. (Thumb-1st finger, Thumb-middle finger) In other words: with a trivial, and very ergonomic, movement, I can shift my window choices in two dimensions. I have little MS-Win experience, but I don't think that is how they do it over there. Not everyone will want that complexity, but the bottom line is that I don't think that many "switchers" know what they're missing when their first encounter is Ubuntu.

PS: If indeed Ubuntu is more popular, then not to worry - our time will come.

[Snowhog]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

Right now I have 29 windows open on 5 desktops.

Holy c*%p!

But hey, that's the power of linux. I have both Ubuntu and Kubuntu (two of my three installed linux OS's). I do find that I enjoy 'visually' what Kubuntu and KDE bring to the table, and I am a visual person.

My Ubuntu Jaunty Jackalope installation is very stable - I've had no problems with it. But I can say the same for my Kubuntu Intrepid Ibex.

[Ole Juul]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

I have both Ubuntu and Kubuntu (two of my three installed linux OS's).

Is the third one Greek Sidux?
In the multi language OS department, I don't bother to use anything other than English, but I do read a lot of Danish news and keep up a bit with the IT in that country. Boy, they sure do like their MS over there - although there seems to be very good Danish support in Linux.

[Snowhog]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

Yes, my third is (was) sidux Πόντος (English version). It is now, sidux in name only, as I've purged the developers sidux specific packages (and kernel) in favor of a 'purer' debian sid system running on a customized kernel (developed by damantz).

[Adrian]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

It's not based on objective assessment of quality (although Kubuntu is the poor relative -- for example update notifier still doesn't work right) the main cause is that when Ubuntu was released Kubuntu was not even available -- so people got used with Ubuntu and GNOME. Same with the press and with the general marketing image. When people outside Kubuntu users think Canonical they think "Ubuntu". Even trolls on other sites say "Ubuntu sucks" they don't even bother to say "Kubuntu sucks" (unless it's a KDE distribution forum )

For what is worth this is irrelevant for me, I do wish Canonical would pay more attention to Kubuntu and don't release without features that are available (or working) in Ubuntu. Update notification is one if them (it doesn't work for me at least, some people claim that it works), guess account is another one, also the Ubuntu One doesn't have KDE client as far as I know... but again the popularity of Ubuntu vs Kubuntu is not based on a objective assessment -- it's just herd mentality, marketing, and getting used with it...

[lmilano]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

IIRC, there was a proposal very early in Ubuntu's life to have Ubuntu-Gnome, Ubuntu-KDE, etc, let the user decide, at download time, to choose a "flavour", and IIRC again, Mark's idea was to have a simple alternative idea to Windows, so he thought one flavour had to be chosen as the official flavour and not bother the user.

I think that was a sane decision. I would have preferred KDE to be chosen, which I believe was a better choice in technical merits (consistency of the interface, quality of the underlying libraries, possibilities of clean development and expansion of the default desktop).

However, Mark is using his own money to fund this. He is supporting all this out of his altruism, in part to give back to the open source community that allowed him to get rich, and in part because he believes in a better world, and he rightly thinks Free(dom) Software is a way towards that.

So, I have nothing but respect and gratitude to Mark Shuttleworth, and I respect his decision.

What _we_ can do is help the Kubuntu project. Here:
http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord

Cheers!
-- Leo

[GreyGeek]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

Why does Kubuntu's KDE have a poor rep?
......
Anyhow, I have read repeatedly from various sources of Linux users being negative on Kubuntu's KDE use (and I guess most of it applies to a preconceived notion that Ubuntu favors, well, Gnome and so the KDE work or implementation is neglected or shoddy?

I'll posit a theory of mine, based on analyses of the attacks that have recently taken place against KDE4.

First, while SOME users have had problems with KDE4, most complaints can be reduced to whines/rants based on the fact that KDE4 wasn't like KDE3. When you look at the rants found at various locations around the web you notice a trend: it is the same small set of Linux "users" who go on tour with their rants and post negative messages about KDE4 in as many forums & blogs as they can. Some have the misguided hope that by making their numbers seem larger than they are they can "force" the developers to recant and make KDE4 exactly like KDE3. They don't seem or want to understand the reasons why that is not possible or desireable. One fellow I tracked around the web even posted his anti-KDE4 rants into threads that had no activity in over a year!

Althought there were the usual trolling by a few GNOME fanbois they didn't contribute nearly as much to the anti-KDE4 diatribe as a new kind of Linux "user" -- the Windows developer hoping for new markets in Linux by importing their .NET applications via MONO. A recent ranter on this forum who publicly quit working on an eeepc distro, claiming that it was because Ubuntu was "junk", was actually having problems importing his .NET system tray tools into that distro. I have also noticed that a lot of anti-KDE4 and pro-MONO propaganda is coming from folks associated with attempts to get as many Linux distros DEPENDENT on MONO so that they only have to publish their proprietary software in one format: MONO. MONO is tied to GNOME with GTK# bindings, which makes GNOME their favourite desktop. KDE4 is built using Qt4, which is an independent, GPL, toolkit without any Microsoft IP taint. Qt4 and its applications are a direct competitor to Microsoft desktop monopoly, so it is only natural that Microsoft turn its TE's loose on KDE4 and Qt4. Many of the anti-Linux "reports" are by journalists exploiting the situation for page hits. Some are merely republishing MS PR points as "news" stories.

The situtation isn't as simple as I used to think it was: Shuttlesworth spending millions advertising Ubuntu. That is a lot of it but that doesn't explain the MONO fanboi attacks or de Icaza exposing himself as a stealth MS proponent.

[jpenguin]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

When you here about Kubuntu, it is Ubuntu with KDE. You don't often hear of Ubuntu as beeing Kubuntu with Gnome

[Adrian]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

When you here about Kubuntu, it is Ubuntu with KDE. You don't often hear of Ubuntu as beeing Kubuntu with Gnome

Most correct! Very good observation, besides "Ubuntu" is the name of the African concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(philosophy), Kubuntu only coincidentally means the same in one of many Bantu languages.

[rideburton56]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

I think the fact that Gnome is touted as more user friendly than KDE, the fact that there is so much less support (from what I have experienced) from the project for Kubuntu (Mark Shuttlesworth had his reasons to pick gnome) make people apprehensive about KDE, and then when they try it after using Ubuntu and run into some problem, I think they go running back to Ubuntu because it is safe.

I found it a little more difficult, but I definitely switched over for the wrong release (9.10), so I am not sure if that is always the case. Fortunately, I liked K so much better I stuck it out, and at this point I prefer it (been running it for about 2 weeks). Even the forum is a little more advanced user geared, which I like.

I almost wonder if forking off and teaming up with KDE would be a better option for this project, so Kubuntu gets the attention it deserves.

[claydoh]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

I think it IS simple:
Ubuntu was created by a group of Debian GNOME users/developers who wanted to create an easy-to-install, easy-to use distro designed to make it easy for new users to switch to linux. Part of this design ethic was to be a single-cd distribution. This precludes having the new user having to make too many choices up front during the install, and also focuses the development team to reach its goals without having to spread out in so many directions. It just happens to be Gnome.

As a die-hard KDE fan, I respect and agree with that choice 100%. We ARE the second dog here, as it should be. Now as for the future, that is wide open. Ubuntu sets the bar to a certain place, but it doesn't necessarily take money (ie paid developers) to strive to reach that level.

Right now, the attention Kubuntu gets is more or less what it deserves. The switch to KDE4 is pretty much complete, most of the anti-kde4 whiners have wandered off, much of the recent criticisms are now more often legitimate, whether from Kubuntu ourselves, or from upstream KDE.

As to so-called forking, that would be a huge waste of resources. And as for teaming up with KDE? As many KDE developers use a variety of distros, this would be both awkward and cause some friction, I would guess. Plus, I think working very closely with what upstream could actually come with extra strings attached in regards to theming and other customizations we might want to use to separate us from the herd (ever wonder why we use the KDE logo on our Kmenu instead of a Kubuntu one, for example?)

[lmilano]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

As to so-called forking, that would be a huge waste of resources.

Couldn't agree more, I actually think most of the problems we have had would have been avoided by using a gtk/gnome application here and there as needed. Examples: package manager, and some admin tools that were lost in the KDE3-KDE4 transition but are still provided in Ubuntu via Gnome. So, I think we should leverage _more_, and not _less_, in the default Gnome Ubuntu.

Except for KDE purists, most users will rather be able to use a second monitor, and not to be told they can't do it because KDE4 doesn't have this functionality yet. They will not care if, when they click on that section in System Settings, a different looking GUI pops up. It may look a bit off, but they'll get going and keep using their computers

[claydoh]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

I am a kde purist myself (rather a DE purist in general) but for some basics, alternatives may need to be considered. gnome's network manager applet for one. But it would be a bit difficult I would think to integrate a gtk applet into system settings. It doesn't even have to be a gnome applet, either

I sure hope people are not actually being told they CAN"T do something, but rather pointed to the tool that may work

[lmilano]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

Yes, I people can and do end up running Synaptic, etc. But ins same cases it is very time consuming to find the right tool. What I think is that all these things should be included by default, even if they are not KDE native.

In other words, the default installation should be feature complete IMHO, even if at the cost of filling some blanks with non-kde applications. And we haven't een very good at it!

[GreyGeek]

Re: Why is Ubuntu more pupular than Kubuntu

Great comments, claydoh! 8)