Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

[blackbelt_jones]

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/01/talking-bluntly.html

Meme 1: What is the future of 3.5?


This year, as with most years since KDE3 emerged, there have been huge deployments of KDE 3 based software. These deployments will not shift for years to come, no matter what KDE4 is. This is because large institutional deployments (government, corporate, educational, etc) typically have 3-7 year cycles (sometimes even longer) between major changes. Patches and security fixes? Sure. Major revamps? No. This alone ensures that KDE3 will remain supported for years. Why? Because there are users. That is how the open source dev model works: where there are users, there are developers; as one declines so does the other. The developers tend to be a step ahead of the users for software that is progressive, but you'll also find that they have a foot in the here and now too (as well as the past, often).

KDE3 is still open in our svn so that bug fixes, security fixes, etc. can continue to be made. KDE 3.5.x is a rather solid desktop system and really doesn't need a huge amount of work given what it is today; the work to move it to the next level is what we refer to as KDE4, of course. This means that the efforts needed to put into it aren't huge to keep it viable. However, efforts that do go into it are welcome.

While the core KDE team will continue to concentrate our work on KDE4 since that is the long term direction of things, it is fully expected that our partners (which include some KDE core team members as employees/members) will continue supporting and even developing on KDE3 issues. The central project will also be around to lend a helping hand with advice and what not; I did that for a person the week before I left for holidays in December, actually, so it's not wild hypothesis but solid theory.

For those familiar with the open source method, the above probably sounds .. well .. obvious. That's because it is .. for those familiar with the open source method. We will find in this blog entry that many of the concerns people raise come from not acknowledging how Free(dom) software is created via the open source method.

I used KDE4 quite comfortably for three days this week before going back to KDE3, which I feel allows me to interact more directly with the data. They're both pretty viable at this point, and the KDE team is doing a great job with KDE4. I'd be able to leave this alone if people didn't keep telling me I was being negative and destructive and a paid secret agent and a bunch of crap when I am just speaking out for choice, against throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and very much in the tradition of free software as evidenced by the testimony of Mr. Plasma himself.

KDE3 has users, lots of them. That's all it's going to take to keep KDE3 alive. You can't steamroll us. You have to make us choose KDE4 if you want KDE4 to be the only one. But for heaven's sake, why should you care?

[GreyGeek]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

But for heaven's sake, why should you care?

I have asked myself that same question about you.

For all your negative rants about KDE4, in about every venue and all over the Internet, and the fact that you claim to like KDE3 so much better, why do you care what other people run? Why do you always and consistently badmouth what is, for the fast majority of KDE4 users, an EXCELLENT product. Neither they nor I nor you had any part in the events that will lead to KDE3's eventual demise. And someday KDE4 will give away to KDE5....


So, run what you want, praise it all you want, and if you find a problem, and this is the most important part, POST A BUG REPORT, don't go shooting off your pen in the blogs. The problems that exist in any piece of software will get fixed a LOT faster if you help the developer by posting a bug report, rather than besmirch his reputation by ranting against his work. You rant so often, so consistently negative, that one could easily draw the conclusion that your goal is to seek the destruction of KDE4. Now, who would benefit the most if KDE4 were harmed by your actions and those of similar minds? Linux or Microsoft? Isn't it strange that KDE4's power outshines that of XP, VISTA and it appears, Win7, yet you are doing everything you can to destroy it in the blogs.

Why is that? That's another question I've been asking myself, since googleing you track record on KDE4.

[blackbelt_jones]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

Sorry, Grey Geek, it's free as in "freedom" not free as in "you get to tell me what to say." I find your readings of my posts to be selective and paranoid. I don't think you can tell what's negative or what it isn't.

Even when you quote me to point out how negative I am, you have me saying things like "This is a very worthwhile project" and " Someday the promise of KDE4 will be truly achieved". Whatever else I had to say, even if I was negative, obviously, I wasn't consistently negative.

Or how about my post at the beginning of this thread:

I used KDE4 quite comfortably for three days this week before going back to KDE3, which I feel allows me to interact more directly with the data. They're both pretty viable at this point, and the KDE team is doing a great job with KDE4.

Yeah, the negativity just leaps out at you, doesn't it?

To you, anything but mindless boosterism (I've also been reading your posts) is a savage attack. Whatever I have to say, Linux can take it. So can KDE and so can Kubuntu.

The issue isn't KDE4, it's how the distros, especially Kubuntu, pushed KDE4 before it was ready, often contrary to the will of the community that supported them. It's been painful for a lot of people. It's not a fatal mistake, but sweeping it under the rug is not how we can go forward as a community.

But this is about played out. KDE4 is reaching the point where it's polished and usable, so I'm not going to have much more that's critical to say about it. I came pretty close to switching during my last attempt. So you can dig up a lot of crazy things I said in the past if you want... but if you do, you're the one who is digging them up.

Furthermore, I've never attacked anyone personally. You're attacking me personally right now. I've never besmirched anyone's reputation, and you're besmirching mine right now.

[growled]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

The issue isn't KDE4, it's how the distros, especially Kubuntu, pushed KDE4 before it was ready, often contrary to the will of the community that supported them. It's been painful for a lot of people. It's not a fatal mistake, but sweeping it under the rug is not how we can go forward as a community.

If that is the issue, it's all water under the bridge. Yes, I will agree with you it was all handled badly. KDE 3 was put aside like a nasty step-child while everyone pushed the at best alpha quality KDE 4 as the real McCoy. If anyone is to blame for the situation, it was the distros themselves, not KDE. No one was forced to use it. The users just had to try this new software and the distros fell over themselves obliging them.

However, whether that was good or bad hardly matters any more. That is the past. It's time to move on.

But this is about played out. KDE4 is reaching the point where it's polished and usable, so I'm not going to have much more that's critical to say about it. I came pretty close to switching during my last attempt. So you can dig up a lot of crazy things I said in the past if you want... but if you do, you're the one who is digging them up.

Then why keep bring it up? Just give it a rest.

[kjjjjshab]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

...
The issue isn't KDE4, it's how the distros, especially Kubuntu, pushed KDE4 before it was ready, often contrary to the will of the community that supported them...

Not to get into the middle of a scuffle here, but I wholeheartedly agree with this statement right here... in the end, it's the DISTRO that decides what to package... KDE was absolutely correct to release 4.0 in the state it was in. KDE4 was a failure of the distros and nothing else.

[blackbelt_jones]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

I agree and I agree, and I agree. No matter what anyone thinks, I have said this again and again. KDE3 is a finished product, and KDE4 is where the developers ought to be putting their attention. They've been doing exactly what they should be doing, and like I said above, they're doing a great job. And it definitely seemes to be viable and workable at this point, even by my standards, which are tough.

The issue of the distros has to do with what Grey Greek is bringing up about my past , not with what I'm bringing up now. The only remaining issue is that KDE3 remains viable for those wish it, and will remain viable and supported as long as it has a user base. I think that this information has been pushed aside. If you want to keep using KDE3.5, keep using it. There's a kubuntu KDE3 repository and even a kubuntu desktop jaunty jackjalope CD with KDE3.

http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net

I think KDE3.5 is a different kind of desktop, less gadgety,and allowing more direct interaction with the data... and still a hell of a lot faster, by my reckoning.

In my opinion, the two KDEs don't supercede each other, they complement each other. I would like nothing better than to be able to alternate between the two. And I don't think that telling people they can use KDE3 if they want is an attack on KDE4. I bring this up, and people tell me I'm being negative and destructive, and I think that's nonsense.

[blackbelt_jones]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

Let me put it to you this way, and this is what I believe with all my heart.. I think KDE has gone from being the best Desktop Environment in the PC World to being The Two Best Desktop environments in the PC world!. Now, who thinks I'm being negative?

[Monster_user]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

The issue isn't KDE4, it's how the distros, especially Kubuntu, pushed KDE4 before it was ready, often contrary to the will of the community that supported them. ...

...However, whether that was good or bad hardly matters any more. That is the past. It's time to move on.

I hate to disagree, but this is the core of my problems with KDE4, and it is not water under the bridge. This is not about the past, it is about the future.

I will not consider it "the past", or "move on" until KDE 5, or Gnome 3. Given that Gnome does not have a history of making such monumental changes,... Given how things have progressed, I cannot be sure that it will be any different in the future.

KDE4 was revolutionary, rather than evolutionary. The next time these distributions take a "revolutionary" step, I hope it is abundantly more clear that "productive users" should stick with an LTS variation.

What makes it even worse, is that with Canonical not providing LTS support for Kubuntu variations, I myself was left with the impression that KDE backporting, and other support would be limited or non-existent even on Ubuntu LTS. Leaving little choice but to upgrade.

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ku...er/002099.html

^ That is the heart of the matter. Apparently communication and coordination were lacking. Given this article, I would assume that it is KDE's fault. They failed to communicate that they would ensure support KDE for the life cycle of businesses. Thus allowing a final LTS distribution an license for a KDE based distribution.

In five, or ten years time, when we reach KDE 5, or a major revision of the Gnome/GTK project, I hope we do not see a repeat of this incident.

Has the community learned from this mistake? This includes the Gnome/GTK development team as well. We saw a similar snafu with Vista at the same time period. Intel, AMD, and other chipset vendors have provided technologies that will allow for a smooth transition into the next "era" of Multi-Cores, and 64-bit machines.

Yet the software developers seem to have collectively joined together to kick reserved users in the shins. It does seem that at least Apple got the formula right. The surprising thing is that they arrived there first! Not surprisingly, they are still transitioning (away from PowerPC), but the transition has been smooth.

[blackbelt_jones]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

The issue isn't KDE4, it's how the distros, especially Kubuntu, pushed KDE4 before it was ready, often contrary to the will of the community that supported them. It's been painful for a lot of people. It's not a fatal mistake, but sweeping it under the rug is not how we can go forward as a community.

If that is the issue, it's all water under the bridge. Yes, I will agree with you it was all handled badly. KDE 3 was put aside like a nasty step-child while everyone pushed the at best alpha quality KDE 4 as the real McCoy. If anyone is to blame for the situation, it was the distros themselves, not KDE. No one was forced to use it. The users just had to try this new software and the distros fell over themselves obliging them.
However, whether that was good or bad hardly matters any more. That is the past. It's time to move on.

But what I've been bringing up is the underreported news that KDE3 is viable and will be supported as long as it has a user base. The fact that bringing it up is controversial proves that it needs to be brought up. My past frustration with KDE4, chronicled in a long trail of cranky embarrassing forum posts, is what Grey Geek keeps bringing up, but that's at an end. My last encounter with KDE4 (in Kubuntu Jaunty) was pretty smooth.

[claydoh]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

Those forum posts of yours here and in other places (quite a long-winded trail) all seem to have the same tone and pattern. Angry, switching to nicer posts, then going back to anger and meanness in some cases.

Your sole purpose is to stir things up, that's all you are doing.

What you keep missing is that none of us hate KDE3, and no none is trying to prevent anyone from using it! Kubuntu is a KDE distro, specifically an up-to-date KDE distro. It is also one that decided for many and varied reasons to be KDE4 only (though there is a KDE3 jaunty remix available - I seed the iso image torrents for it, as a matter of fact).

You need to channel your efforts into something actually productive instead of fishing for controversy.

[blackbelt_jones]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

Because if not for me, none of these problems would exist, right? 8)

All I'm doing here is offering a lesson on how KDE releases are supposed to work, and citing the highest and most reliable authority I can name. I quote an old Eric Seigo blog, and certain people are so offended that they're digging into my old posts for ammunition. Well, Claydoh, I can still remember you posting misinformation about how there would be "no more KDE3 releases" in the Kubuntu wiki. How is passing on accurate information controversial, and passing on misinformation noncontroversial?

KDE4 is a terrific project, but it has become a cult with certain people, and these people don't want frank discussion and accurate information, which ought to be cornerstones of the free software method. I've been pretty cranky in the past, but here I've been exceedingly positive, and I've passed on accurate information about the future of KDE. Which is the controversial part?

With a revolutionary change there will be problems, and I say people who think that the frank and even occasionally cranky discussion of these problems will weaken free software have got it exactly backwards. It's bad for cults, but it's good for software.

[blackbelt_jones]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

Which is not to say that I don't regret my spells of unpleasantness; I do, but people who can't tell the difference between bad intentions and a bad mood will just have to figure it out. And sometimes I'm just plain wrong. I never learned a damn thing in my life without being wrong first.

[claydoh]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

You still don't get it

Because if not for me, none of these problems would exist, right? 8)

In a way, as you are simply and constantly re-dredging up old and often outdated issues

All I'm doing here is offering a lesson on how KDE releases are supposed to work, and citing the highest and most reliable authority I can name. I quote an old Eric Seigo blog, and certain people are so offended that they're digging into my old posts for ammunition.

Offended?? Ammunition?, no just giving a glance on how you seem to operate.

KDE releases KDE, Kubuntu releases a distro based on and including KDE. though related on a certain level, the 2 are sorta unrelated.

Well, Claydoh, I can still remember you posting misinformation about how there would be "no more KDE3 releases" in the Kubuntu wiki. How is passing on accurate information controversial, and passing on misinformation noncontroversial?

lol, that is so funny. you are definitely full of it now , at least full of misinformation

So where is this new, official Kubuntu release with KDE3? There is a user-created remix. And remix is the operative word here. And where are you in assisting in this project, btw? The guy is doing great work, but I am sure he can use a hand, or at least some feedback. Direct your energies there.

I write these wiki pages as I am part of the Kubuntu team, I help work on the release notes. I get my information from the developers themselves, and take part in the discussions. So I know a little bit more than you on some of these things. Kubuntu will NOT have a new KDE3 release. Go and ask them.

KDE4 is a terrific project, but it has become a cult with certain people, and these people don't want frank discussion and accurate information, which ought to be cornerstones of the free software method. I've been pretty cranky in the past, but here I've been exceedingly positive, and I've passed on accurate information about the future of KDE. Which is the controversial part?

Ahh the cult comments again I wonder what the next stage is?

You still don't get it. All I , and others are trying to say is that this is all OLD NEWS. Dragging up these issues simply to stir things up for the sake of stirring is trolling. Pure and simple. Kubuntu is what it is, did what it did, and moved on, just like any distro has had to do at one time or another. It's over. Time to move on. You have been um, positive, sort of, in recent posts. But when will it swing back the other way?

move on.

lets stop feeding it now

[blackbelt_jones]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

[blackbelt_jones]

Re: Aaron Seigo on the future of KDE 3.5 (January 08)

You still don't get it

Because if not for me, none of these problems would exist, right? 8)

In a way, as you are simply and constantly re-dredging up old and often outdated issues

You're

All I'm doing here is offering a lesson on how KDE releases are supposed to work, and citing the highest and most reliable authority I can name. I quote an old Eric Seigo blog, and certain people are so offended that they're digging into my old posts for ammunition.

Offended?? Ammunition?, no just giving a glance on how you seem to operate.

KDE releases KDE, Kubuntu releases a distro based on and including KDE. though related on a certain level, the 2 are sorta unrelated.

Well, Claydoh, I can still remember you posting misinformation about how there would be "no more KDE3 releases" in the Kubuntu wiki. How is passing on accurate information controversial, and passing on misinformation noncontroversial?

lol, that is so funny. you are definitely full of it now , at least full of misinformation

So where is this new, official Kubuntu release with KDE3? There is a user-created remix. And remix is the operative word here. And where are you in assisting in this project, btw? The guy is doing great work, but I am sure he can use a hand, or at least some feedback. Direct your energies there.

I write these wiki pages as I am part of the Kubuntu team, I help work on the release notes. I get my information from the developers themselves, and take part in the discussions. So I know a little bit more than you on some of these things. Kubuntu will NOT have a new KDE3 release. Go and ask them.

KDE4 is a terrific project, but it has become a cult with certain people, and these people don't want frank discussion and accurate information, which ought to be cornerstones of the free software method. I've been pretty cranky in the past, but here I've been exceedingly positive, and I've passed on accurate information about the future of KDE. Which is the controversial part?

Ahh the cult comments again I wonder what the next stage is?

You still don't get it. All I , and others are trying to say is that this is all OLD NEWS. Dragging up these issues simply to stir things up for the sake of stirring is trolling. Pure and simple. Kubuntu is what it is, did what it did, and moved on, just like any distro has had to do at one time or another. It's over. Time to move on. You have been um, positive, sort of, in recent posts. But when will it swing back the other way?

move on.

lets stop feeding it now

Well, I don't have anything more to say, but I'm kind of surprised that you're the one who decides what's revelvant and what isn't. People are starting to admit that mistakes were made, and you're just flipping out all over the place. People have had things to say about this, not just me, in this thread, so what makes you the controller of what's relevant? The fact that you're the KDE4 Kult Kommander?

Of course the Kubuntu KDE3 disk is a remix, just as Kubuntu is a remix of Debian. So what? I never said otherwise. I sent Tim Pearson some money, by the way. Does that count as helping out?

And when will I say something cranky? Is that really so terrifying a prospect?

You know what? Here's something cranky for you. Every community needs a gadfly, and from where I sit, you are looking more and more like Purina Gadfly Chow. I think that talking about what the Kult Kommander doesn't want to talk about is extremely constructive.