Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

My Dapper Upgrade experience: Anything but a fairytale

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    My Dapper Upgrade experience: Anything but a fairytale

    I downloaded the new Kubuntu Dapper RC Desktop CD, to see how things are going in Dapper, especially regarding the desktop installer, which I've been dreaming about since that project got started. Yehey for no more downloading of separate ISO's!! I later on installed it on a separate partition just to test the installer and to see how the installed Dapper looks/feels like (I'm guessing a fresh install from the Alternate Install CD might have a different outcome).

    And generally, I was very much impressed!
    - Things were "generally" faster (see my comment later about "generally") as compared to the Breezy Live CD.
    - Things also seemed tidier and cleaner. The window decorations (Crystal) sort of syncs with the Ubuntu decorations (ClearLooks, AFAIK).
    - And the K Menu! That has got to be the cleanest, shortest, and most organized K Menu I've seen! Comparing it to MEPIS and KNOPPIX, no wonder why some people say that KDE is cluttered and messy. Of course, MEPIS and KNOPPIX might have different audiences/goals for their Live CDs, but still, a clean K Menu is a sight for sore eyes.
    - The wallpaper, while simple, sort of mesmerizes me with the bubbles and curves. Of course, I'll be changing that eventually, but it's good to know that the default is very nice.
    - A lot of improvement on the apps, too. They have returned Konqueror's profile options in the Settings Menus. A lot of people where looking for them. Unfortunately, they also reduced the profiles to only two: File Management and Web Browser. While I make my own profiles to suit my own needs, others may like to have defaults to fall back on. I'm beginning to like System Settings and find myself using it a lot lately. They've included the KControl modules that were missing in Breezy (Spell checking, Samba, and OBEX, although the last two I think only show up in the proper context). Network Settings puzzles me, though. In Breezy, it would not enable my eth0 no matter how hard I try. In Dapper, it's already enabled automatically, using DHCP (which my ISP doesn't have).

    Unfortunately, I've also noticed some things that were less than amazing. So here goes my rant.

    1. Remember when I said Dapper was fast on the Desktop CD? Yes it was, until after a few minutes. Then it begins to slow down. Opening anything related to system settings takes far longer than in Breezy. The first time you try to open System Setting modules or Adept goes by fast, but the next ones are considerably slower.

    2. Monitor/Video Card: Ubuntu has yet to give me a 1024x768 default resolution, which it hasn't done in any version/release/mode. Based on the Desktop CD, it has successfully identified my (onboard) video card as a VIA S3 Unichrome, but failed to identify my Monitor, which is an old 14" AOC Spectrum 4Vn. I'm not sure, though, if it's just a monitor problem. KNOPPIX also fails in this respect, and gives me, like Ubuntu, a 800x600 resolution. The only Live CDs that have given me the correct resolutions are MEPIS and, surprisingly, the Kororaa XGL Live CD, although in MEPIS I had to use the VESA option.

    3. Sudo: it just makes me wonder why we emphasize on the advantages brought by sudo, yet have no implementation of this on the Desktop CD. If the Desktop CD is a sort of preview of what Kubuntu has to offer, shouldn't it also have sudo, which is one of the distinguishing characteristics of Ubuntu. MEPIS (again comparing it to MEPIS...) has implemented a separate root account and asks for the root password for administrative tasks. Couldn't we also do something similar, if just to emphasize on Ubuntu's sudo identity (and also to train newcomers to the process). They could perhaps just implement a simple password (like "root" or "user").

    4. Is it just me, or do you find the bootsplash Kubuntu logo/banner a bit too glaring? the contrast between the black background and the very bright blue color is a bit uncomfortable for me.

    5. Adept: I still think it's quite in-adept for normal desktop users, and the addition of cluttered tags doesn't help. I'm a bit disappointed with the progress, or lack of it, of this app. It might have the potential to be good, but at version 2.0, it's still crawling. The much needed prompts/reminders are still absent, allowing you to inadvertently uninstall or break certain things. I don't know why/how some Kubuntu devs/people seem to be excited over it. Well, probably, it's because it's something only they could use/understand.

    6. Adept Installer a.k.a. Add/Remove programs: What is it and why do we need it? Was this made because Windows people are more familiar with the terms or because GNOME/Ubuntu has it? Can someone out there please explain to me this strange creature that I can't understand.

    7. Lastly, this concerns more the installed Dapper rather than the Desktop CD one. This is about upgrading to amaroK version 1.4. After installing Dapper, what I immediately did was setup my internet connection and check what's upgradable. So far it went well. Then I added the KOffice 1.5.1 repositories and upgraded Krita (haven't installed KOffice yet). Then I added amaroK 1.4's repository and tried to upgrade amarok 1.3.9. Lo and behold, it won't continue because upgrading amaroK would break packages. After searching here and there, I found out that 3 packages that amaroK needs in order to upgrade is found in the universe repositories! I know that enabling universe is simple, but why should a package in main (a.k.a. fully supported) need the universe repositories (a.k.a. not supported) to be upgraded? Specially if the universe repos is not enabled by default?

    Anyway, aside from these 7 things, I found that my Dapper experience has been very pleasing. So far, I've had only 1 Konqueror crash (which I was able to exactly duplicate in Breezy) and 3 Adept crashes (somehow due to updating repositories whenever I add/remove amaroK's).  But that's far less than the crashes I experience in Breezy. But then again, I haven't yet installed most of the apps that I have in Breezy, so who knows. I just hope that KDE in Dapper is more refined and polished this time, and less prone to crashes. (Otherwise, I might have to make a forced and sorrowful move to some other KDE based distro, coz I'm never leaving my beloved KDE )

    Really looking forward to the official release. Backing up my data now so that I can bravely update tomorrow.

    EDIT: I forgot something important. While I had no problems using the Espresso installer on the Desktop CD (including using the partition utility to reformat one of my existing partitions), one behavior bothered me. The installer doesn't ask where to put GRUB and automatically puts it in the MBR. It's no problem for me since I use a floppy disk when I boot (and use the menu.lst that's on my Breezy installation), it might not be an easy thing to undo/repair for beginners.
    Jucato's Data Core

    #2
    Re: My Dapper (RC) experience (just a few observations)

    Nice post, obviously took some time to put it together

    I don't have time to comment on everything you've excellently brought up, but I'll pick one thing to comment on and let others fill in

    Originally posted by Jucato
    6. Adept Installer a.k.a. Add/Remove programs: What is it and why do we need it? Was this made because Windows people are more familiar with the terms or because GNOME/Ubuntu has it? Can someone out there please explain to me this strange creature that I can't understand.
    I think it's there to help people unfamiliar with linux package management to get used to the linux way of doing things...apt/adept/synaptic can be a bit intimidating with their 'cryptic' package names...I guess it's meant to be a simple, straightforward way to install/remove software (though I don't actually know if it's either simple or straightforward...I've never used it) :P

    Comment


      #3
      Re: My Dapper (RC) experience (just a few observations)

      Great Post! You've pointed out some pitfalls that I will keep in mind when I upgrade. With regard to your specific gripes:
      1) Does this indicate a memory leak in one or more of the Kcontrol modules? Have you checked top? This could be a show stopper.
      2) does the installer give you a chance to specify your monitor characteristics or do you have to manually run dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg immediately after installation?
      3) If the desktop CD doesn't have sudo what does it have for administration?
      4) I'll let you know what I think of the new bootsplash after Saturday (when I'll have time to upgrade to Dapper).
      5 & 6) You may be interested to learn that Debian (always conservative) regards Adept as Alpha software.
      7) The lesson is be sure that universe and multiverse are enabled.

      Thanks again for the heads up!

      Comment


        #4
        Re: My Dapper (RC) experience (just a few observations)

        To answer some of your questions:
        1. I couldn't check KSysGuard or top immediately because by the time that things slow down, it would take KSysGuard around 20 seconds or more (emphasis on the "or more") to start up. I get really frustrated and impatient with it. Good thing I installed Dapper already for the full experience. Not really sure if the problem just happens to me. Haven't heard anyone complaining about the RC Desktop CD.

        2. I forgot to mention that the Desktop CD installer probably uses whatever settings that you have used to run the Desktop CD. Kinda nice actually. You only have to setup your hardware settings once. It doesn't ask you for hardware setup during the installation (neither does it ask you where to put the GRUB). The reason why I suspect this is because I had to run dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg on the Desktop CD, and when I installed it on my hard disk, I looked at the Display Settings and the Monitor part says "Custom Monitor". Which is a bit weird since it dpkg-reconfigure recognized my monitor as an AOC Spectrum.

        3. What does it do/use for administration? Nothing! Click on Adept and you're ready to install things. Click on the Administrator Mode button and you're in. No asking for any password whatsover. No prompts. However, you still have to type "sudo" when you're on the terminal, but that's just about it.

        Adept IS alpha (or maybe beta). I'll play around with Add/Remove Programs to see if there are really benefits to it, both from a Linux-user and a Windows-user point of view. Adept Installer (the name of the Add/Remove Programs app) does indeed look better than its Windows counterpart. Actually the two have no similarities except for the name and the basic purpose/function. However, Adept Installer does look a lot, and I mean a lot, like the Add/Remove Programs in GNOME, making me feel that it's almost like an attempt to mimic it. I'm not really sure how having this app would help Windows-users move in to Kubuntu, as now they actually have 3 apps to use in updating, upgrading, and/or installing: Adept Updater, Adept Installer, and Adept, all of which, to some extent, duplicate each other.

        7. To have universe enabled is fine by me. Multiverse is a bit shaky, though, and having it enabled is a bit contrary to what Ubuntu wants to make us believe:
        From http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components:
        We believe that the software in main includes everything most people will need for a fully functional desktop or internet server running only open source software.
        and
        The "multiverse" component contains software that is "not free", which means the licensing requirements of this software do not meet the Ubuntu "main" Component Licence Policy.
        So while the amaroK package itself is in main, in order to really use it in its most up-to-date version, you absolutely need multiverse. I just find that ironic.

        There are two more things that I forgot to mention (again) in my first post:
        1. I actually like the fact that Adept Updater is now quite useful. In the past, all it did was to update the repositories. Now, you can also upgrade from there. Still, I think that the same stuff could be done just as easily in Adept itself. However, it seems that Adept Updater is tied in with Adept Notifier. This is another cool thing that they added. For some time now I've been quite jealous of the fact that Ubuntu has something like this. Now we do, too! I like it very much, except for the fact that it launches Adept Updater rather than Adept itself. Hmm... now we have 4 Adept siblings (in order of seniority): Adept, Adept Updater, Adept Installer, Adept Notifier. I don't know whether I should be impressed or amused.

        2. It seems that the default settings for KDE 3.5.2 in Kubuntu is that the Display settings module is no longer reached by right-clicking on the desktop. It can now only be found in the Peripherals group of System Settings/KControl. (Unless of course you manually edit some files). I'm not sure if this is Kubuntu only, or KDE-wide (have to check my MEPIS Live CD). Anyway, I can't seem to understand why they would do that. Is it another attempt to mimic GNOME (like Add/Remove Programs). I'm not a GNOME hater, and I don't object to anything GNOME-ish. However, the location of the display settings is one of the things I've always believed to be an advantage of KDE over GNOME. When a user right-clicks the desktop, he/she might expect to configure not only the Desktop, but the Display as well. But I guess that comes from the way Windows does it. But just because they do it that way, doesn't make it automatically wrong or bad, right?

        Anyway, I hope our local mirrors for Dapper are up, so I can start upgrading. This is the first time I've actually been very excited to upgrade a system.
        Jucato's Data Core

        Comment


          #5
          Re: My Dapper (RC) experience (just a few observations)

          I think I'm going to continue to do updates and upgrades the old-fashioned way: Run synaptic, whenever I remember to do so. Click on the circled arrows and see what's installed-upgradable. Except for security upgrades, which should be announced (like that thing in Breezy with the installation log), upgrades can usually wait a while.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: My Dapper (RC) experience (just a few observations)

            Originally posted by askrieger
            I think I'm going to continue to do updates and upgrades the old-fashioned way:  Run synaptic, whenever I remember to do so.  Click on the circled arrows and see what's installed-upgradable.  Except for security upgrades, which should be announced (like that thing in Breezy with the installation log), upgrades can usually wait a while.
            The wonderful thing about linux is that there are so many ways to do things...and you can use imagination. I myself fetch a list of available updates with a cron script 4 times a day...then I can use the list in, for example, superkaramba to show a list of available updates on the desktop (though my current theme only shows number of updates and last update time)

            Like someone said, the possibilities are endless

            Comment


              #7
              Re: My Dapper Upgrade experience: Anything but a fairytale

              Finally! As of 11:15pm of June 1, 2006:
              :~$ lsb_release -a
              No LSB modules are available.
              Distributor ID: Ubuntu
              Description: Ubuntu 6.06 LTS
              Release: 6.06
              Codename: dapper
              Started updating/upgrading at 9:30am, giving me a total of almost 14 hours of upgrading time! Well, I was a bit disappointed, but maybe because I had too high expectations on my first ever upgrade in a Linux distro, and probably because I had too much installed stuff (around 1000+ packages, including libraries).

              Anyway, while I'm waiting for the KDE 3.5.3 updates to download and install, I thought I'd give another "blog" about my not-so-good upgrade experience. Please, correct me if I'm wrong in a few of my assumptions. This is my first ever upgrade since I used Linux (started with Breezy), so my concepts of what a proper upgrade should be might be a bit wrong.
              (Okay, maybe I should make a blog where I could right this stuff. Maybe I'll start one soon. )

              1. First of all, I tried to disable certain unnecessary repositories (backports, security updates), thinking it would lessen the things that will be upgraded. Unfortunately I was wrong. Adept's (yes, I was trying as hell to like Adept) status bar greeted me with 1000+ packages to be upgraded, 8 to be installed and 205 to be removed. And those to be removed are all KDE packages! Now that can't be right, right? Then I moved to disable the universe and multiverse repositories, thinking it would lessen the dependency problems. But lo and behold, 210 packages had to be removed. Needless to say, there was no way in the world that I could upgrade to Dapper, without going through the painful experience of removing 205 KDE packages.

              Still, I went on. But I didn't make a Full Upgrade at once, again, thinking that it would make things easier. I went for a Safe Upgrade first (equivalent to apt-get upgrade), upgrading 625 package, installing and removing nothing. That took around, oh, 4-5 hours. No biggie. Then I restarted my PC and I could no longer log in to KDE. still cool, I knew my CLI. So off I went to apt-get dist, courageously confirming to remove 205 packages, and upgrading around 300 or so stuff. Well and good, that gave me another 3 or 4 hours, caught some much needed sleep in between. I woke up to see that the upgrade was finished. Knowing that I installed most KDE stuff, including kubuntu-desktop, I simple reinstalled that metapackage, bringing with it most of the uninstalled packages (of course, I had to manually reinstall others not included in kubuntu-desktop). That gave me another 3 hours. Thinking I was done, I rebooted.

              And I was greeted by a command prompt, again. This time, the culprit was the X server. I could dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg, then I would be able to restart kdm and log in. However, once I restarted the computer, it went back into CLI mode. Using a few of my own "debugging" steps (posted it somewhere in the forums), I got error messages regarding FreeFontPath. Luckily, I still had my test Dapper installation so I was able to surf the net regarding that error. Unfortunately, that wasn't very helpful. It then struck me to take a peek inside xorg.conf. Lo and behold, there were entries there that were meant for wacom tablets. It seems that xserver insisted on putting in settings for wacom, even if I didn't have any. Deleting those lines solved everything. So by 11:15pm, I was a full-blown Dapper Duck user.

              But does a dist-upgrade really take that long? If I knew it did, I would have just made a fresh install. And since I had my /home on a separate partition, setting up everything the way it was would have taken less time, too.
              Like I said, maybe I had too high an expectation in upgrading. But they always said that it's easier to upgrade in Linux than in Windows.

              2. Logging into KDE, I was happy to see that really none of my personal settings have been altered, except for the KDM Login. Everything else was the same, as if nothing happened for the past 14 hours. So no problem there really. I actually decided to set everything to how it would look in a fresh Dapper install: window decs, icons, colors, wallpapers, panels, etc. Now it looks as if I did make a fresh install.

              3. Display Settings: still trying to get used to the fact that it is not there anymore when I right-click on the desktop. I still think it should be there, but I guess I might be wrong. However, the Display settings modules have added some very nice features like the Color and Gamma tab, and my favorite: the Hardware tab. Now you can set your Graphics Card and Monitor in GUI style. Of course, it still detects my monitor as "Plug n Play" or Custom, but as long as it gives me my 1024x768 resolution, that's fine by me.

              4. I'm beginning to like System Settings, especially now that it's modules are complete. I guess the Samba and OBEX modules only show up if you have the necessary networks/devices connected. Network Settings now shows my eth0 as enabled, and using a manual connections (not static, not DHCP).

              There's something wrong with System Settings, though. Whenever you go into Administrator Mode for a certain module/setting, you can never go out, without closing the whole System Settings program. If you click on Apply or Back, it still stays in Administrator Mode. I'm not sure if it's really a bug or if it's really supposed to work that way. But IMHO, it should not.

              5. Something's wrong with the Desktop Pager in the panel I think. I've set it to display the desktop wallpaper, but doesn't update or display it. I think there was a bug on this. I have to research on that.

              6. The Adept Brothers: they are really giving me a laugh. I already said how Adept 2.0 basically still isn't really user friendly. I still stick to that opinion. I'm guessing Adept will still accidentally ruin some systems, because of the lack of prompts/confirmation dialog boxes. And I think the creator of Adept knows that, too. To see what I mean, open up any of the Adept Brothers, go to the Help menu, and click on About Adept. Read the full name of Adept 2.0 ____ (using KDE 3.5.2).

              I still don't see how these 4 (Adept, Updater, Installer, Notifier) work together. You see, Adept Notifier tells you if there are updates available. If you click on it, it will launch Adept Updater to updates and upgrade. However, in order for Adept Notifier to know that there are updates available, you have to click on Fetch Updates either in Adept Updater or Adept. If, for example, you just added new repositories, which can now only be done in Adept, and Fetched the Updates, Adept Notifier will signal you that there are updates available. However, you can no longer launch Adept Updater, as Adept is already running. So Adept Updater is a bit redundant. On the other hand, if you just use a routine Fetch Updates (without adding repositories), you have to launch either Adept or Adept Updater. If there are updates available, Adept Notifier will pop in the system tray to tell you that. However, you would already know that since you have the big GUI's visible. This time, Adept Notifier's job is redudant. Of course, unless there's actually someway that you could Fetch Updates without launching Adept/Adept Updater, then Notifier's job kicks in. However, they have no way of doing that, I think. Although I see Notifier starting up when I log in, I don't know if it's checking for updates, too.

              And then, there's Adept Installer. I still can't understand how to use it. How do the GNOME people use their Add/Remove Programs? For one, where does it get it's list of apps that could be installed? I tried looking of KGet in it, but returned empty. However, it's present in Adept. So it really puzzles me on how to make use of this thing which is supposed to make it installing apps easier. And btw, unless I have not installed some docs, none of the Adept Brothers have any manual/handbook.

              ------------------------------------

              Argh! I've made a long rant again...
              But overall, my experience with Dapper is mixed with sorrow and joy. Fortunately, the rewards of patience and perseverance seems to far outweigh the pains. Booting is 5 seconds faster. Konqueror has not crashed on me yet (although Kicker/KPanel has). Things seem to be generally faster than in Breezy, and this is with everything I had before still installed. A few hiccups along the way, but was worth it, at least for the learning experience.

              Before I sign off, I'd like to leave 2 things that you might want to know:

              1. If you are upgrading from Breezy, you might want to know that /usr/share/example-content contains the Example files that's included in the Desktop CDs.

              2. Want to search for packages in the repositories, both online and offline, without leaving the comfort of your GUI or running Adept/Synaptic? I introduce you to the apt:/ kio_slave. Discovered it by accident (actually I can't remember where, and I don't know how long it's been there). It allows you to search for packages offline (using apt-cache) or online (searching in packages.ubuntu.com). Nifty little critter.

              With that, I bid farewell! And wait upon Adept to finish downloading KDE 3.5.3
              Jucato's Data Core

              Comment


                #8
                Re: My Dapper Upgrade experience: Anything but a fairytale

                My upgrade experience was significantly worse than yours. I decided to try an upgrade from Breezy to Dapper. I had previously upgraded the same machine from Hoary to Breezy with virtually no difficulty whatsoever (or, at least I don't remeber any). It was an almost total disaster. After the download which took less than a half hour at about 350 kB/sec, everything SEEMED to install properly. I go to reboot and I wind up in a console with a bunch of error messages about Bluez (I don't have any bluetooth devices) and the usual wacom stuff. After cleaning that stuff up, I restart KDE, black screen no ~/.xsession file. Where did it go? Neither dpkg-reconfigure or hand editing my /etc/X11/xorg.conf retrieved the situation.

                My next thought was that perhaps I ought to get rid of the Hoary based configuration files by doing a fresh install. Initially I was going to use the alternate installer for fear that the "Desktop CD" would kill my windows partition. Then I realized that the last time I started windows on my laptop was last May! So I downloaded the desktop CD (in a mere 2 hours and 45 minutes at about 60 KB/sec) checked md5 sums on the iso and all the programs on the burnt CD. Not only did the Desktop CD not kill my windows partition, but it recognized my oddball sized Dell screen and came right up in KDE. Kubuntu 6-06 seems snappier on my laptop than either Hoary or Breezy, so as far as the laptop goes, I'm a happyy camper. Note that I have not tried wireless, because I don't have a wireless access point. I'm not so sure I'm ready to take the time to download a second CD for my AMD64 desktop box, what the heck I can use my laptop while the AMD64 iso is downloading!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: My Dapper Upgrade experience: Anything but a fairytale

                  I guess you did have a worse upgrade. But at least you found out that things are not working after a few hours. I had to wait for half a day to find that out.

                  But anyway, do upgrades, and I mean dist-upgrades really take that long? Or maybe because I just had 1000+ packages/libs installed? Damn I need to clean up my system I guess...

                  Btw, the Desktop CD doesn't overwrite partitions. But it does overwrite the MBR automatically. Good luck with your AMD64 box! I'm still ironing out a few things with my Dapper. Upgrading KOffice seems to have broken KOffice...
                  Jucato's Data Core

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: My Dapper Upgrade experience: Anything but a fairytale

                    I had the advantage of a broadband internet connection, so the upgrade was fast, but the download of the desktop CD was slow. I have no idea whether Ubuntu is deliberately throttling CD downloads, or whether it's just the popularity of the distro overwhelming their servers. At any rate, I'm going to wait until tomorrow or Sunday before trying to update my main AMD64 desktop box. Not only will that give me a better chance of a fast download if I need the CD, but it will give me time, today, to do a complete backup of the /home and /etc trees. I have much too much stuff on this machine to take a chance on losing it.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: My Dapper Upgrade experience: Anything but a fairytale

                      Originally posted by askrieger
                      I had the advantage of a broadband internet connection, so the upgrade was fast, but the download of the desktop CD was slow. I have no idea whether Ubuntu is deliberately throttling CD downloads, or whether it's just the popularity of the distro overwhelming their servers. At any rate, I'm going to wait until tomorrow or Sunday before trying to update my main AMD64 desktop box. Not only will that give me a better chance of a fast download if I need the CD, but it will give me time, today, to do a complete backup of the /home and /etc trees. I have much too much stuff on this machine to take a chance on losing it.
                      YES YES YES. Always Back Up OFTEN.

                      I do it at least every 2 days almost Everyday.
                      While I very seldom have any problems with Losing anything since I began running Linux almost 2 years ago.

                      I learned while Running Windoze, You'd Be SSSSSSSSOOOOOOORRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYY....

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X