German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

[molloollom]

You know Kbarcode, the label-making KDE app? I went to their website to post a bit about some bugs on their forum, and this is what I found on their forum link-

Due to the very restrictive and inaccurate German laws we were actually forced to shut down the forum. Despite the fact that the German high court declared that the owner of a forum is not directly responsible for the postings, some courts in Germany forces the owner of a forum to read every article prior publishing.


If anyone would like to support Kbarcode and Krename with hosting a forum, please contact the team members.

http://www.kbarcode.net/Forum.16.0.html

This is the first I've heard of anything like this and I was wondering if any of you have heard of anything similar.

[MoonRise]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

Wow!!! No, I've haven't seen or heard anything about this. That's really insane!

[dibl]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

I am an occasional poster on the sidux forum, which is hosted in Germany. One of the principals on the sidux team is a German lawyer, and he has mentioned on multiple occasions how draconian the German law is on this issue. On sidux forum, they disallow the use of any name of a package that provides a capability, directly or indirectly, to defeat drm encryption. So, if you write "mplayer" it gets replaced by "*multimedia package*", because mplayer gets you ffmpeg and ......

The reason being, as you say, some German courts hold the forum host liable for what every post says.

[MoonRise]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

I agree -

[pookito]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

I am an occasional poster on the sidux forum, which is hosted in Germany. One of the principals on the sidux team is a German lawyer, and he has mentioned on multiple occasions how draconian the German law is on this issue. On sidux forum, they disallow the use of any name of a package that provides a capability, directly or indirectly, to defeat drm encryption. So, if you write "mplayer" it gets replaced by "*multimedia package*", because mplayer gets you ffmpeg and ......

The reason being, as you say, some German courts hold the forum host liable for what every post says.

I am sorry but what does it mean getting ffmpeg and the German law, Is it illegal?

[toad]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

Wow, that is totally insane! Thanks for bringing this to the attention of a wider audience. Since I live in Germ I definitely feel like getting on to my local MP about it!

[kyonides]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

Amazing, totally amazing I must say... I thank I don't get in troubles here on my country or any country in the whole American Continent because of such a thing. It's scary...

[dibl]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

I am sorry but what does it mean getting ffmpeg and the German law, Is it illegal?

@pookito, I'm no lawyer, but my understanding is that ffmpeg and possibly the codecs that it is able to use can be used to defeat DRM "protection" on digitized music and videos -- so promoting the use of such software is a crime in Germany. In the U.S. it is illegal to defeat the DRM, but I have not heard that it is illegal just to say the name of the software that one could use to do it.

So what has happened is that some German courts have said that if the software is mentioned on a forum, then the host of the forum might be "aiding and abeting" the violation of the law. So, for the sidux forum host, to protect themselves, they have gone so far that you cannot use the words on the forum.

In the U.S. we have a First Amendment to protect free speech, so it's not so easy to throw someone in jail just for saying their opinion or mentioning a name of a codec or software package.

[pookito]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

I am sorry but what does it mean getting ffmpeg and the German law, Is it illegal?

@pookito, I'm no lawyer, but my understanding is that ffmpeg and possibly the codecs that it is able to use can be used to defeat DRM "protection" on digitized music and videos -- so promoting the use of such software is a crime in Germany. In the U.S. it is illegal to defeat the DRM, but I have not heard that it is illegal just to say the name of the software that one could use to do it.

So what has happened is that some German courts have said that if the software is mentioned on a forum, then the host of the forum might be "aiding and abeting" the violation of the law. So, for the sidux forum host, to protect themselves, they have gone so far that you cannot use the words on the forum.

In the U.S. we have a First Amendment to protect free speech, so it's not so easy to throw someone in jail just for saying their opinion or mentioning a name of a codec or software package.

Wow, it is amazing how law's can hurt innovation or progress. Very upsetting.

[sithlord48]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

i have offered some space to there forum (sadly the server is @ my house where i have 45kbps max upload)
well see if they would like to use it

[toad]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

Apparently they are out to make a point. No person in their right mind would convict them. But well done, sithlord48 There are tons of German hosted forums which don't give a toss about this rule.

As for innovation being stifled by silly laws - look at patents. I think the US has the silliest laws in the entire world on patents. Worse news is that the EU wants to match the stupidity that is being practiced across the pond, though

[fidesratioque]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

There's free speech in Germany, too. It isn't a crime in Germany as far as I know, just a tort. But I'm not sure.

[toad]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

There's free speech in Germany, too.

Well, that is a moot point. If you say anything that goes against the constitution for example or which could be interpreted as inciting racial hatred you will be nicked. Their interpretation of free speech is different to the States for example, where you can say literally what you like.

[fidesratioque]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

toad, you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater. And yes, I happen to agree with incitement of racial hatred being banned, since it's usually a precursor to criminal violence against minorities. You can also criticize the constitution in Germany if you want, as long as you don't actively try to overthrow it!

[toad]

Re: German web laws force KDE app forum to shut down

Thanks, fidesratioque. You are of course quite right. I was just trying to draw attention to the different interpretations or understanding of free speech.