Elitist attitudes

[Mike54]

Re: Elitist attitudes

On one hand, I can certainly understand the frustration you are feeling.

When I ended up with my first Windows box (back in the 3.1 days), there was a learning curve that came with it. But I have never looked to a Windows forum for help with running Windows. I've managed to move from 3.1 to Windows 95, Windows 98, ME (Ugh, did you ever run that one?) and have ultimately ended up in XP without ever having to find a forum that might provide me with hints on how to install this, or how to enable that.

I've been running Kubuntu Feisty for 10 days on one of my home systems. I'm starting to get comfortable with it and have only re-visited Windows one time in those 10 days.

I managed to set up an XP/Ubuntu dual-boot on a computer I use here at work and this one has been an real bugger. Try this nVidia driver, now try that nVidia driver, now modify this xorg.conf file. And when I finally got screen resolution where I wanted, then I started searching forums for the reason this machine keeps freezing. It now appears there is some incompatibility between Ubuntu and the USB mouse and keyboard on a Dell C 521, that I ~might~ be able to work around with a powered USB hub. Only I'm not too interested in spending any money to attempt to get someone else's computer running Ubuntu. And you can imagine how much interest there is on the owner's part. "Just use Windows", will be that response. And rightfully so, because Windows doesn't seem to have an issue with these components.

I don't mind putting effort into learning a bit about K/Ubuntu, but when I realize how completely comfortable I am with using that "other" operating system and how I've never spent a lick of time perusing forums trying to sort out why my resolution was limited to 600 X 400... I've owned 4 or 5 Windows boxes through the years and the systems had video drivers that were ready to go, no help forums required. The system I'm using at home has a Creative Labs X-Fi sound card that is useless in Kubuntu. It works quite well in the "other" operating system and only required plugging the computer into the wall socket.

So, yes, I can feel your pain. But I've decided I'm in this for the long haul. I'm just stubborn enough to stick it out and find ways to get things working.

I think this is my first post here, so I want to say hello to everyone and thank you all for the information I have found here. I hope there will come a time when I will be able to give something back to this community.

[Snowhog]

Re: Elitist attitudes

Mike54: First, welcome to Linux in general, and to Kubuntu specifically.

Your post is very well expressed. While I too, sympathize with those new to Linux who seem to have no end of problems, I also have less patience with those who's expectations of the Linux experience are overly tainted by their Windoze experiences. Linux is not Windoze. Windoze is not Linux.

Why does Windoze have an (almost) 100% "it just works" out of the box reputation with it's users? Quite simply, $$$'s. M$'s either builds it's own device drivers, or pays royalties to those companies who did, and that M$ incorporates into its OS. In the 'closed source,' proprietary world that is not Linux, money is the grease that makes things work. In Linux, where the Open Source philosophy reigns, it is individuals intellectual talent, and their commitment towards improving "all that is Linux" that is the grease that makes things work. And consider this: A lot of effort, talent and time, is expended in the 're-engineering' of drivers without benefit of proprietary source code, just so Linux can work with the PCs, add-ons, peripherals, and the like that predominate the market.

So, if you are thinking of trying out Linux, or have already taken the plunge and are experiencing problems, take a breath, relax, and examine your expectations. You may have set them to high. But don't be discouraged. With few exceptions, the problems you may be experiencing do have solutions.

[Jay_Jay]

Re: Elitist attitudes

Many converts from Windows make the transition expecting Linux to be Windows without all the problems and become disheartened when their dreams aren't fulfilled.

Linux is NOT Windows - essential reading for newcomers (including me)
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

Torvalds has a long way to go before he ranks up there with Gates' cockiness and obnoxious behaviour, but that topic could form an entirely separate thread

"Elitist"? No, a more appropriate description is pride in using software that embodies a vision of computing that has been obscured for a long time - power in the hands of the user.

Linux is hard and requires a lot of time? Windows is far from simplicity. Run into serious problems and frequently the only solution is to reinstall, even for experienced users. Did you boot it up and become proficient overnight? Over time you became accustomed to the OS. It took me years to "master" Windows 3.1, 9x and the NT family. The same model applies here. It will take time to adjust, but hey - nothing ventured, nothing gained.

but when people complain, it's only a small group of people who are sympathetic. I keep reading very snide remarks and sarcasm

Linux is NOT Windows
If a "3a" user runs into trouble with Linux, he'll complain: The software hasn't met his standards, and he thinks he has a right to expect that standard. His mood won't be improved when he gets sarcastic replies like "I'd demand a refund if I were you"

So, to avoid problem #3a: Simply remember that you haven't paid the developer who wrote the software or the people online who provide the tech support. They don't owe you anything.

Most companies are coerced, intimidated and pressured into making products and offering support for only Windows by MS' legendary strongarm tactics. The few that are brave enough to go against this often face falling out of favour and being penalised in one way or another. Imagine the wrath exerted behind the scenes when Dell decided to ship pre-installed Ubuntu units.

The extent of the support you can hope for is often limited to with someone in a call centre reading from a script in their booth and lacking real technical knowledge.

Many hardware manufacturers are tied up in special "agreements" with MS that prevent them from issuing non-Windows drivers nor will they release the necessary data required by Linux developers to provide drivers themselves. They have to reverse engineer, use guesswork and ingenuity to reach a solution. This is all performed by volunteers working out of a passion and love for computing rather than profit motives.

Disgruntled users ought to direct their disdain towards the uncooperative manufacturers who are responsible for this predicament. Turn your financial support to companies that support Linux, check the compatibility lists before making purchases. Forewarned is forearmed, even with Windows people often ensure their gear is supported before upgrading or installing - did you check to see which of your equipment would work "out of the box" before trying Linux?

Lack of responses to your posts? I replied to one of your queries myself, did you have any luck with my suggestions? We try our best to help each other out as we all know what It's like to feel frustrated. If no-one responds it is usually because they're unable to assist. It can be annoying though when questions are asked that have been already widely documented across the forum and would've been discovered through a simple search - i.e "why won't my MP3's play?"

if Linux ever becomes more popular, there will be hackers writing stuff for it, too.

Unlikely, the *nix core was designed from the ground up with security in mind whereas It has always been a half-hearted gesture of appeasement in Windows. An unsecured XP box is compromised online within 40 minutes.

Hardware works flawlessly under Windows? That's inaccurate reporting. I own countless items that have never worked properly with Win and likely never will. One of my Win boxes will not allow me to use a mouse and the modem at the same time. I have to pick one or the other: ridiculous and this is from a multinational organisation with vast resources, run by one of the world's wealthiest people.

Yes, It's true: you can return to XP, for now till MS turn it off and force you onto Vista where the EULA virtually grants them total rights over what you do with your computer. Rather you than me...

End of sermon.

[kbunt]

Re: Elitist attitudes

Wait a minute, I think my complaints have been misinterpreted a little and also overlooked regarding my perspective. I already realized the experience is different as Linux has to deal with backwards engineering drivers or approaching hardware which has drivers targeted for Windows while trying to locate or produce linux drivers.

But, my post was barely touching that topic. However, if you want to look at that issue, I can respond by saying that I have observed after witnessing some distros installed, that many developers seem to concentrate on other things than what is important. Perhaps, I'm not sure how things work but that was my impression. For e.g., if the organization of an entire distro is by an individual or by a huge group or corporation, you might see a change in a distro in the graphics or desktop yet some application or window has some weird issue. I don't how to describe this fault but I've seen it several times.

But, my concern was about the 'pride' or stubbornness of some Linux users and intolerance towards newbies who are, most likely, Windows users. I think most Linux newbies agree with your opinions and sentiments regarding Windows or they would not be diving into Linux in the first place. But, regardless of what Windows or Microsoft does, it doesn't help that the learning curve seems way different (higher/tougher) when introducing yourself to the Linux world compared to the Windows one. I have been trying to configure wireless in Kubuntu. This has reminded me, somewhat, of the internet configuration when attempted way back in Windows 95 but it's way way harder. Blacklisting, building modules, checking whether a driver or chipset is present, wondering if you need to install something known as ndiswrapper? You don't think newbies should be alarmed or complaining about this? Just because Linux is open source and other drivers are mostly written for Windows?

Run into serious problems and frequently the only solution is to reinstall, even for experienced users.

True. However, I haven't reinstalled Windows for a while but in comparison, may I suggest it is often easier to reinstall a distro than to upgrade it? At least, that was my impression considering packages and dependencies etc.

I agree that Linux, in general, shouldn't have to deal with such obstacles but perhaps, it will change when Linux can simplify some of the issues to a greater degree. I am not suggesting or recommending dumbing down things or making it more like Windows (like some people will assume) but to concentrate on the more serious obstacles or barriers. With all the wireless hardware out there to choose from, I still found it odd and troublesome to realize there were no linux drivers that would allow a 'out of the box' experience. But, what made it worse is that the instructions and explanations for 'fixing the issue' involved complicated workarounds. At least, it seems complicated for a newbie such as myself. It seems like 'intermediate-to-advanced' procedures. The other problem is that you often read the same hardware having several different procedures and none seem to confirm a successful 'fix' but then I'm only going by forum posts which doesn't always suggest accuracy.

Anyway, I didn't touch on the attitudes or perceived attitudes much because I already mentioned that already. I'm trying to revisit Linux currently, though, but I still find it tough and I'm trying to ignore or overlook any "complaints" to my posts although I probably won't post as much. I'll try to google or search forums for the solutions or procedures to try. I hope my concerns can find more understanding but who knows.

[Mike54]

Re: Elitist attitudes

kbunt, I hope you can find the help to resolve the issues you are experiencing. I think my time spent on the forums this far has been pretty much inside searches, trying to find specific solutions for specific problems. As such, I've really not been paying a lot of attention to how responses are written, whether they seem snippy or not.

I've struggled my way through a boat-load of posts that were well over my head, that much is certain. I guess when (if) I start asking my own questions, rather than searching through others', I'll try to make it quite clear that I am green as a gourd.

I am pleased to say that I've managed to get around the mouse freeze issues I was fighting on this computer. A quick BIOS flash and I'm back to loving life. (Well <touch wood>, I've managed to go 3+ hours without a freeze, so I'm loving life thus far.)

[dibl]

Re: Elitist attitudes

I'm trying to revisit Linux currently, though, but I still find it tough and I'm trying to ignore or overlook any "complaints" to my posts although I probably won't post as much.

Intellectual honesty requires objective criticism of Linux, or Kubuntu, or Windows, or OS/2, or whatever -- they are all far from perfect. I myself have some opinions about the shortcomings of the open source community and the "free" aspect(s) of it (have you ever counted the number of Linux file managers, versus the number of usable Linux cell phone interface apps, and asked yourself "WHY"?)

However, this being the Kubuntu Forum, it probably isn't the place to look for tons of sympathy, or vent one's innermost anger, if you actually want constructive help.

Today's two cents' worth (or less ...)

[Jay_Jay]

Re: Elitist attitudes

Kbunt,

I do empathise, we've all faced teething troubles. In my case I cannot watch video files/DVD's with an acceptable performance and my current workaround is to either boot into Win2k or use another machine. Extremely frustrating when I want to show off to people what the OS can do.

Last year I tried Kubuntu 5.10 without a dual boot to fall back on and gave up very very quickly - it was difficult to get my head around most of the concepts after spending years in Win world.

My wireless card was not compatible (still isn't) which meant the laptop was cut off from the outside world and I had to go back and forth between my other computers to transfer data, read and search for solutions online. Ndiswrapper was extremely daunting and it wasn't long before I reached for my Win2k CD.

This year I made another attempt, this time with 7.04 and I bought a new card that is Linux compatible (Netgear 511T), picked up a few books and bookmarked several sites. This time round It's been a far more positive experience, I enjoyed wireless connectivity out of the box. Like yourself I've faced problems: Kubuntu couldn't always latch onto routers effectively and maintain a connection but through perseverance, trial and error and the help of fellow forum members I've managed to resolve most of them.

For me, the turning point to my wireless issues was to completely remove Knetworkmanager and instead use the network configuration properties from System Settings. After that, I can get online and stay online.

What I'm hoping is that with enough time and patience the same will happen for you. Don't give up, keep posting and asking questions. There were times when I wanted to throw my laptop out of the window in despair, but over time as I've become more proficient this feeling has thankfully faded.

[Fintan]

Re: Elitist attitudes

Again the question elitist bears definition.

This whole thread has become elitist in my mind. Because someone obviously wants to harp on a subject which basically has no solution. If hardware does not work, you have three choices.
1 - Change the hardware, or build your computer according to linux specs.
2 - Buy your hardware with a preinstalled OS and live with it.
3 - Define for yourself what you actually want to do with a computer and go to point 1.

Why has this thread become elitist? Because it has provoked an discussion which is neither productive nor satisfying in helping any one.

[kbunt]

Re: Elitist attitudes

Jay-jay and dibl, you are both right in what you say. However, I feel I've been as objective as possible. I think it's the combination of the time element (time needed and what's available) and the frustrations of hardware and drivers issues that crop up often with Linux and how difficult it is to deal with for a newbie or me, if not many share the degree of frustration I've recently experienced. Perhaps, my patience isn't what it should be but I thought I made rational arguments and had some people belittle me (in tone, anyway) and defend Linux in a way I thought was overly emotional and prideful. I don't understand the attachment to an OS in that way and although I might not have expressed my concerns and complaints as well as I wanted to and get the message across as intended, I still thought my complaints were reasonable albeit sounding biased to a Linux fan's ears. However, I probably just have to realize that in order for myself to use Linux, I need to acknowledge and accept I probably don't catch on as fast as the rest (of you) do to it and just keep plugging along and not make time requirements on myself.

Thanks for your understanding and encouragement because I needed it.

Mike54, I should have web-searched more myself and kept inquiring, asking questions and if I post, try things and post the command outputs and list exactly what I'm doing. Then just wait for an answer even if it took a while or didn't get a response that helped much. Your method and approach sounds better and I'll try to do more of that. I still hope that drivers can be improved but it will be a better experience if I am able to learn more of the more complex stuff and that might make failures and problems much more easier and less stressful to endure.