Elitist attitudes

[kbunt]

I'm thinking of giving up. Here are my reasons:

1) The elitist attitudes of Linux users - I think a lot of Linux users can be represented by Linus and I guess they feel justified considering the main guy who started things is cocky and obnoxious.

But, what bothers me most is that Linux is not easy and yes, it requires a lot of time but when people complain, it's only a small group of people who are sympathetic. I keep reading very snide remarks and sarcasm. I thought it might be limited to the Ubuntu forums but it seems like there are some here as well as other Linux distro forums. I think even if I become a super duper expert at Linux, I would never become like that. I would know how those frustrated people feel because I've been there.

2) Most companies make products for Windows and offer Windows support. That is a fact and unfortunately, it is something newbies can claim Windows is easy for them relatively speaking. The best thing about Linux is choice and the open source but I find so many tasks you want to do are extremely time consuming and you sometimes go in circles. I see certain parts of computers as particularly problematic in Linux especially wireless. MythTv was near-impossible (well, impossible for me) and other things required vast amounts of time. I fail to see how Linux becomes a staple on the desktop unless people get a lot of time off their work/jobs or they are all in computer-oriented jobs.

3) Choice is good but in my case, I find it difficult to decide just what to do. Invest more time learning and trying to get things to work? I have already spent a lot of time and I keep getting stumped. I encounter one obstacle after another. I know this is negative but I have trouble finding support in the forums here. I posted about wireless with almost no responses. I read in the Ubuntu forums but there's problems/issues galore in there and I don't know which approach to take. I think it's important to learn Linux (it is progressing) but it also makes me feel stupid and foolish. Perhaps, I should chalk it up to an inability to progress/learn fast enough and join the other large group of people who mostly use Windows. Afterall, a great number of Linux users will not miss me nor will they care. It's all about choice and we all have the choice to use whichever OS/computer stuff we wish.

[fleamailman]

Re: Elitist attitudes

sorry to hear that you are giving up, give us more details then, was it kubuntu, was it here then, I ask simply because I have never seen the type of post you mention on this forum and would like to see what it was, could you link it here then please.

I suspect that linux is like swimming for the first time, there are those who take to it easially who have the body to match while there are others who either do not have the right body(system) or do not have the knack, who then return to the shore. The distros themselves, like swimming strokes differ, some are easier than others, so my suggestion is rather than giving up finding yourself back on that leaseware which will only force you to upgrade at cost , I would simply go for dual boot with kubuntu, anyway, I am really someone who knows little about linux, I have my system running perfectly thanks to trying distro after distro, and finding the right parts such as a MSI wifi usb stick, but nothing is lost by finding out which distros are not for my system, or which distros don't sing to me, because all that I have learned here remains mine whereas who can say that for windows then.

btw if someone else is starting linux I suggest this then
http://wubi-installer.org/screenshots.php
and yes, choose kubuntu because it has a nice forum

[dibl]

Re: Elitist attitudes

I'm thinking of giving up.

That is a most interesting sentiment -- I wonder what it really means? How exactly does one "give up" on the need to use a computer?

Probably you mean "cave in and revert to using Windows". Well, the last time I logged in to the Windows PC at my house, normally used by my wife and daughter, I had to go do something else for the first 5 minutes or more while it ran a virus scan, followed by a spyware scan, and when I came back it had a list of malware that I had to quarantine -- all this before I could do the tiny little task of formatting a thumb drive to NTFS. This is the computer that, for my last installation of Win XP a year ago, the GWA thing refused to accept the license key on my GENUINE copy of Win XP, and I spent 30 minutes on the phone to somebody in India getting permission to install the OS that I bought and paid for, onto the computer that I bought and paid for. That was the day I downloaded the Kubuntu Dapper Live CD.


Anyway, it sounds like "giving up" in this case is a lot like going to Hell. Sorry -- that's my honest opinion -- no offense intended. Good luck with it.

[Fintan]

Re: Elitist attitudes

I can only concur with dible. I have plenty of the same but that would be boring.

You are of course right. A computer is a tool and should work. OS's and connected driver issues be damned. In a perfect world that would be the case.

Well as far as drivers are concerned, to a large extent linux is only getting better,. This is readable anywhere.

The experience of learning how to actually use what you have paid a lot of money for with people all over the world that are will to help for free is something that no other Software/hardware based product will give except for open source and linux.

Sure some of these guys are "elitist" in the sense that they play with this stuff 24/7 and they do it for a reason. Us. Maybe they don't use the right language in trying to convey a solution. But is only natural. when I speak with a lawyer I know he / she is not going to talk to me in a language I am supposed to understand (well I do but they don't know that ) but you get my jist.

And in their defence a lot of people post the same question without searching, so it can be tiring answering the same thing over and over. After all we / they are human.

All I can say is that this forum is the best around and I have seen a few.

I for myself find learning an endless and productive experience.
As they say nothing is for free. It all depends if I want spend my money for short term ease and longterm pain or middle term work and longterm ease. I won't go into the parallels these two concepts make me think of

Cheers and have a good one

[eriefisher]

Re: Elitist attitudes

I can sympathize with you, however, I really hate it when people say things like "Windows is easier". They have obviously never done anymore than point and click.

I recently had to reinstall XP on my wife's computer, third time this year. It took 50 minutes for the basic install and almost another hour and a half to update it. After all this I still had to install all the apps she need to work with. I can't switch her over until there is a proper accounting app and also a transcription app that she can use the controller with.

The most time I have ever spent installing Linux is about 15 minutes. The rest is all a matter of choice. No spyware, no viruses, no malware.

I really hate it when people tell me windows is easier.

eriefisher

[Fintan]

Re: Elitist attitudes

Need windows apps? easy:
Linux + :
http://www.howtoforge.com/vmware_con..._windows_linux
+the right qustions+Samba / fileshares +2hrs time = nice smooth almost sexy working environment.

[kbunt]

Re: Elitist attitudes

sorry to hear that you are giving up, give us more details then, was it kubuntu, was it here then, I ask simply because I have never seen the type of post you mention on this forum and would like to see what it was, could you link it here then please.

I suspect that linux is like swimming for the first time, there are those who take to it easially who have the body to match while there are others who either do not have the right body(system) or do not have the knack, who then return to the shore. The distros themselves, like swimming strokes differ, some are easier than others, so my suggestion is rather than giving up finding yourself back on that leaseware which will only force you to upgrade at cost , I would simply go for dual boot with kubuntu, anyway, I am really someone who knows little about linux, I have my system running perfectly thanks to trying distro after distro, and finding the right parts such as a MSI wifi usb stick, but nothing is lost by finding out which distros are not for my system, or which distros don't sing to me, because all that I have learned here remains mine whereas who can say that for windows then.

btw if someone else is starting linux I suggest this then
http://wubi-installer.org/screenshots.php
and yes, choose kubuntu because it has a nice forum

The 'How to: Leave Ubuntu' post but it's mostly what I've read in the Ubuntu forums. The problem is that I rely heavily on forums and google to 'fix' things but I'm not experienced enough or have enough ability to work through a problem just by googling (thus far). I know a few people who are good at Linux who use google and can usually solve a problem but I'm not good enough at Linux to do that. I'm also not patient enough and I feel that a lot of solutions involve complicated processes.

I don't like that you can't criticize Linux or Ubuntu or whatever distro without some users jumping all over you. It seems elitist to me. I am more used to Windows but if Linux users criticize Windows, I don't try to defend Windows and if I do, it doesn't turn emotional. It's not a sense of pride like I see from a lot of Linux users.

I prefer Kubuntu over Ubuntu or KDE over Gnome by a lot. Unfortunately, this forum is not as busy. I ask a few questions and it might get 20 views but no replies. Ubuntu forums seem to obtain a lot of replies but if you are critical or complain about something, look out.

I *really* REALLY want to become a 'Linux user' and ditch Windows (not totally because I believe that there are some things Windows does better but that is always diminishing) but I feel I have to spend so much time at it and when I have trouble, I often feel hopeless and even dumb. It's very disheartening and I've been very close to giving up the devotion of time towards Linux several times.

I do think Windows is 'easier' but that description is too simplistic and doesn't explain what one means by 'easier.' By 'easier', I mean you can point and click but it's a bit more than that. There are cases in which things don't work but how many times did you have to finish a project by going to Windows' command line. I know of 'cmd' and 'msconfig' but how many more commands are absolutely required to get things done? When is the command line a better alternative than GUI or traditional methods (of getting something to work)? I know that the advantage of Linux is you get to see what's going on through the command line and designing or implementing something in a way you can see what's going on behind the scenes. In Windows, Microsoft hides that from you (pretty much). But, one doesn't have to spend oodles of time learning how to do something to get something to work. If you don't know very many commands or how to build a module or tweak by compiling, you are limited to how you can use Linux. Much of the power of Linux is taken away or not available to you. One often has problems when you want to use something that is closed source. But, the newbie is not going to make excuses like a Linux 'fan' will. They see the learning curve being wide and the end result way out of reach compared to googling some Windows issue and then just learning what some previous Window user did to get something to work. They likely didn't have to use a command line.

I can't explain it well as I'm sure there's some explanation that shows me that I am omitting something advantageous for using Linux or that you eventually learn how to become more proficient at Linux etc. But, currently, I am both discouraged to the point of throwing in the towel but I also hate the idea of quiting. Is that contradictory? I know I would have quit long ago but I feel 1) that Linux is ultimately a good system/OS once you spent enough time learning and 2) that Linux, in the long run, is a better way (i.e. open source) compared to Windows of which I have a low opinion of anyway mostly because of my overall opinion of Microsoft. If I could force myself to take more time or somehow could learn faster and get past that 'newbie hump' or time frame of struggling through the major difficulties to the point in which you become more familiar, maybe I could perceive things differently. I'm not sure I can wait until then or not.

With Windows, I know that I can use the software, hardware and other systems eventually or more quickly but that I will have to work harder at using free or inexpensive hardware/software. Also, there are areas in which Linux is excelling over Windows. However, for a newbie trying to learn and get to the point in which it's easier to conquer obstacles, it appears to be so out of reach. Well, for me. :-/

[kubicle]

Re: Elitist attitudes

About the command-line, it will surely feel intimidating to most new users, but it is often considered the strong point of *nix systems (I've been told that even Windows Vista added a more unix-like CLI)

Most things in Linux can be done with the GUI point-and-click way (although there still are few things that can't be). The reason why you run into a lot of CLI commands when searching for help (while setting up your computer) is that it is a lot easier to give a one-liner to fix a specific problem than to describe the process of GUI point-and-clicks, menus, options etc. The CLI commands are also 'nearly' universal, as opposed to GUI processes that vary between different desktop environments.

Another case where Linux CLI shines is when the Graphical environment doesn't start (for some reason)...you can troubleshoot and fix the error without resolving to a reinstallation of the system. These things can happen in Windows, too, unfortunately the Windows recovery console is not as powerful.

Also when using remote connections over a slow connection, one is likely to prefer a command line interface over a slow graphical interface.

There are a lot of useful CLI programs for linux as well, like the package manager aptitude, irssi for IRC and w3m for internet to name just a few (Just because they are text based, it doesn't mean they aren't powerful or usable).

Linux also has an extensive built-in documentation for the CLI, but to be used effectively one of course has to learn to search the man pages effectively.

I'm not saying one doesn't have to learn some things over and some completely new things, and there is no doubt you find Windows easier to begin with, after all you've learnt how to use it effectively already. Most people who use linux for a longer period of time come to appreciate the CLI eventually...even if they still prefer to do things graphically (it's reassuring to know there are alternative ways to accomplish things in case of emergency)

Adding GUI software that can do things that were limited to CLI only is a worthy goal for any linux distributor, of course.

[kbunt]

Re: Elitist attitudes

Okay, not in a good mood. I was saving and storing commands and tips to an Open Office document and couldn't bring it up (2 pages) as OpenOffice 2.2 has bugs or something. The screen would freeze and go haywire. Problem #1. So, I go to another document that I pasted tips and one was to download kwifi. This program didn't help at all. Problem #2. So, I then decide to abandon the hope of getting WPA to work so I work on WEP. Problem #3. I keep getting 'The default Gateway IP address is invalid.' messages. I have eth1 listed as having the wireless chipset and all the wireless info is shown as on eth1 when I use the command line to list my usb info for wireless. But, in the GUI, using the manual configuration, the wireless network is listed with eth2. HUH?!?!?!?

But, the GUI (KNetwork Manager is not working properly and that can be Problem #4) only displays 'Manual network onfiguration' and only allows WEP configuration. All this is totally complicated and I feel as though I'm getting nowhere. If I tried to explain this or post this in the Ubuntu forums and criticize this system of wireless in Linux I would just receive insults, sarcasm and excuses. I can't express how frustrating this is and this should be relatively simple or at least, I should have some clue of what is going on but I don't. I read here or somewhere that this a bug in KNetwork Manager. I assume I am not allowed to give my opinion of this program because it would not be allowed in the post.

I guess I am not smart enough or savvy enough to get things to work in Linux. This is not the first time I've had trouble with something in Linux or worked on something for a very long time. I don't know how people can disagree with me when I say that Linux is way harder than Windows. People who are just starting have to spend a lot of time on Linux if they are doing anything other than 'point and click' stuff. Some people have busy lives. I don't know how anyone figures that they can put aside time to work on wireless or other projects in Linux. I guess they are computer literate or naturally gifted at computers, at least when it comes to Linux. I guess I'll stop here as I'm just ranting now.

I am throwing in the towel. There are not enough posts here for assistance and the Ubuntu forums have a lot of people willing to help but even then there are many cases in which no one replies. I cannot help but criticize both Linux and the Ubuntu system but then much of it is my fault. Therefore, I guess I should just accept I won't be able to persevere and can't do what I want in Linux. I hate to accept that, though, but at least in the crappy resticted Windows world, I can do other things after I get wireless working.

Thanks for reading and 'listening.'

[fleamailman]

Re: Elitist attitudes

I think elitist is the wrong word to use with this forum because by nature elitist spells something which is out of reach to all, whereas no one here can hide anything form you, and the fact that we all try to help show just how far unelitist the ideal of linux and this forum is, there are no ranks and I think it is safe to say that only the person who really doesn't know sees himself as knowing, we are all newbies, linux is new

[kbunt]

Re: Elitist attitudes

You're right, it's the wrong word. Perhaps, I was thinking of the word, snob?

Anyway, you are right, there are a lot of people who are very helpful in the Linux community but it can become very frustrating for newbies, I suspect, and when some of the people are not really tolerable or sympathetic to the trials and frustrations of various newbies, the problems seem even more insurmountable. At least, for me, anyway.

[fleamailman]

Re: Elitist attitudes

No I don't think anyone here is a snob, I repeat that the more one understands the more one is humbled by it, nothing is hidden form you,

with windows Mr Average can put up a hjt log on a forum, he will have someone remove his malware but the malware itself is not explained in case the malware maker is watching, Mr Geek can become a member of that malware removal site by registering and learning about malware removal enough to be allowed to correct the hjt logs of Mr Average, that I hope you will agree is a hidden system mended by a certain number of specialized people, Mr Geek improves his knowledge at the expense of Mr Average who remains unaware of what exactly his system is about albeit that Mr Average may not wish to know about his system but now compare that to linux where we are all watching and feeding back surely the adjectives you mentioned better fit window than linux then, the accusation would hurt them just as much if not more but applying terms of elitist and snob to a open forum on an open system where people try to help for free is surely the opposite of what you see

[kbunt]

Re: Elitist attitudes

The latest attempt included recommendation to install and configure using wlassistant. But, the attempted wireless connection failed and then I couldn't even connect using a wired connection. I won't say anymore since I can't say anything nice or good about it. (Btw, I had to go to Windows to post this).

Yeah, Windows has a lot of negative especially the anti-virus stuff. But, if Linux ever becomes more popular, there will be hackers writing stuff for it, too. Maybe it's a better system and more secure but if security and virus/malware is the most serious issue with Windows other than the closed source/proprietary/non-free status, I'll just use an anti-virus program, malware program and hunt for free software (as there is some out there). But, most things work and I'll use XP (screw Vista).

I've encountered way too many frustrating situations with Kubuntu/Linux and I don't like to be angry constantly while using a computer.

Edit: I've been reading the Ubuntu forums and the entire thing is turning me off. The feel is way too corporate, elitist and controlling for me. Combine that with my experiences and so ends my K/Ubuntu experiment.

[fleamailman]

Re: Elitist attitudes

I doubt that malware makers will have an easy target with linux, firstly it is very easy to reinstall so one won't bother with hjt logs, next there are so many types of linux that a malware maker is only going to be able to hit a few of them at any one time, the system is open so hidding stuff is less easy, if one is running on a liveCD without harddrive, if one is not running as root, etc., oh and if one has a sitting duck of system next door in windowsland, I think one can safely say that is not going to happen soon.

I am going to hand the thread over to anyone else now,

[kbunt]

Re: Elitist attitudes

I'm thinking of giving up.

That is a most interesting sentiment -- I wonder what it really means? How exactly does one "give up" on the need to use a computer?

Probably you mean "cave in and revert to using Windows". Well, the last time I logged in to the Windows PC at my house, normally used by my wife and daughter, I had to go do something else for the first 5 minutes or more while it ran a virus scan, followed by a spyware scan, and when I came back it had a list of malware that I had to quarantine -- all this before I could do the tiny little task of formatting a thumb drive to NTFS. This is the computer that, for my last installation of Win XP a year ago, the GWA thing refused to accept the license key on my GENUINE copy of Win XP, and I spent 30 minutes on the phone to somebody in India getting permission to install the OS that I bought and paid for, onto the computer that I bought and paid for. That was the day I downloaded the Kubuntu Dapper Live CD.


Anyway, it sounds like "giving up" in this case is a lot like going to Hell. Sorry -- that's my honest opinion -- no offense intended. Good luck with it.

Hell is trying to get anything to work (properly) in Linux or at the moment, K/Ubuntu. I understand and know about the annoyances of Windows. If I had to call MS to get a license key, it would take less than an hour? But, if I want wireless on Windows, I just plug in the USB adapter and it is more than likely going to work after installing the provided drivers on the CD or the ones you download. But, in Linux, there are five different people claiming you have to do A, B and C to get it to work but it might not even be the right driver or chipset. I have researched and spent HOURS to try to get it to work and have modprobed, input commands to obtain info on the chipset and more. I'm just a newbie but imho, this is advanced stuff.

I am sick and tired of reading Linux people praise Linux and ridicule Windows users and anyone who criticizes Linux and whatever distro. I read extensively on the Ubuntu forums and there are multiple pages about what you can and can't post. This is a page about 20 different types of trolls and the community has so many users who post sugary compliments of how great Ubuntu is. But, have a negative experience and try to post it or have a perspective that doesn't follow the status quo of 'pro-Ubuntu' and how 'easy it is.', nope.

Even though most linux distro forums have no shortage of 'I can't get my wireless adapter/card' to work, you still can't say something negative without being bashed or mocked. True, this forum seems to be more tolerable and understanding but it's also not very busy, honestly.

I googled and came across several pages for configuring my Belkin usb adapter but there is no concise, exact process that is complete and confirms the product working. The closest I found was in the Debian forums but the driver/chipset was not found when I tried the commands (did modprobe).

I find the Ubuntu community to be a turnoff and although I'm giving up on Linux if I was ever to return, I'd be looking at a different distro.