Oh Snap!

[GreyGeek]

Bloatware expands to occupy the processing power made available to it.

I know I'm going to regret this post.

Not on this forum. Diversity of opinion is truly honored.

From my POV, any app that one has on their system and does not use is bloatware. When Linux initially began it's central theme was "utilities". Small bash scripts or ELF binaries that did one thing and did it very well. dd, cat and less are good example. There are many, many others in /usr/bin. So many, in fact, that about once a week or so I learn of other utilities. Last week Veronica mentioned "fuser". Never heard of it.
"fuser displays the PIDs of processes using the specified files or file systems."
It has 18 parameters. Therein lies my problem with utilities, especially as I've reached 82 yrs old. I can't remember them. If I do use dd, for example, I always have to run man on it and review the syntax. That's why, as I've gotten older, I began using more GUI front ends to utilities than the bare utility itself. That led me to KDE (Plasmadesktop), the best GUI on the planet. As I approach closer to senility I think it will be easier to use KDE than the underlying utilities they replace. But then, I won't know because I probably won't remember!

[maximus]

Thanks for the reassurance GreyGeek.
I'm coming at this from the opposite. Although I dipped my toes before windows I've only used gui's for the most part. And how I regret not having pursued the tech side of things. I'm browsing atm using a desktop that has the basement sink let alone the kitchen sink just so I could get this browser on debian. For now is all as demands permits little else. Once I'm back on top of things (after recent interuption) I may have a few questions.
ty again

[CharlieDaves]

So I had a Firefox popup 134 days to install Firefox SNAP.
I had to search through here.
From what I've read, snap is an alternative to apt-get.... Correct?
ALSO on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap_(...#Functionality
, Canonical recommends users only install Snaps from publishers trusted by the user.^[13][14]
Just a WTF moment. How do I know whom to trust? I don't even know the backends - frontends or whatever. I seldom install a .deb from somewhere as I don't fully trust it is coded correctly, especially when it was last edited before I was born(well almost)

It is also mentioned, and I guess this is the bottom line, that SNAP's are designed mainly for servers, CLOUD and that glorious (IdiotOfThings) like a smart Dishwasher that has Zero security

Question. What is the alternative if I don't want snap's? Is there going to be a LongTerm alternative or are we all doomed to be desktop cloud users?

[claydoh]

You need to read more recent sources

Snaps are a sort of universal distro-agnostic packaging scheme for apps,in addition to one's native packages. Flatpak is an alternative that is more widely used. The topic is the current rage bait/angry user thing that is discussed at length and ad nauseam all over the linux-verse. Very political, really. Both of these schemes do provide much more current software, as well as stuff that is not available.

While Snaps may have originated more on the server side to make installing services on them easier, it has nothing to do with cloud computing itself, definitely not for desktop applications. They are controversial, to say the least. A little bit overblown imsho, but understandably so.

Firefox has been a Snap package in *buntu since at least 20.04, so that is nothing new.

Most things are still available visa the 'old-fashioned' apt, and you usually have the choice on what to install. There are TONS of posts here (and on the internet) about replacing the FF Snap with a deb.

[CharlieDaves]

You need to read more recent sources

Since me reading lots of things just causes mental confusion (mental medical condition), and since I do have faith and trust with you Claydoh (and a few others), what, if I may ask, is your stance on 'old-fashion' apt-get vs SNAP software install.
Oh. I've read articles as far back as v18.04 *buntu, including the Firefox Snap. It's just that I've never seen a "snap" request. I have found Firefox snap install in muon, and I have now Locked it to current state. At least until I know more on What is actually going on, why it's going, where it's headed.

I don't mind changing, as long as there is support, and understanding of why we are changing.
PS Thunderbird recently updated, and it is visually crap. It even lost my active calendar. POSS (Piece of S. Software). It's all white, no colour, (I had "today" as a pale yellow so I could easily see "today". Oh and nearly every update it changes start of week to Monday. Why. Maybe their zelots. I Prefer Sunday as start of week. I have done so all my life, even every calendar I purchase starts on a Sunday unless you purchase a "business" calendar

[claydoh]

Personally, I really don't care.
There are some technical things about Snaps/Flatpaks that imo need to be fixed (on both), but neither is inherently bad.
(this has nothing to do with the 'politics' of Snaps only coming from one "closed" source vs Flatpak having the freedom to create multiple independent sources, though in reality it has only one. I avoid the political aspects, because I tend to be a knee-jerk contrarian)
I lump both Snaps and Flatpaks together, as they are different, but in the end do pretty much the same thing.

You can make your own decision, but key plusses and minuses:

Snap/Flatpak:
Plusses: current applications without needing to have the most current OS, as needed or desired
No dependency-hell
"sanboxing", --meh, but still an aspect some like

Minuses:
Too many package formats

"bloat" as application dependencies are separate from your system. Say you want to try out a KDE app's most current release in an old distro, and you run KDE. Your flatpak or snap will install a separate package containing all those deps.
However, if you are on KDE, and don't have any Gnome crap pre-installed, but want to try a new Gnome app, you have to install the deps for it no matter which format you use. Disk space usage worries are more personal than reality, but snaps/flatpaks will use a little more space, depending on the specific application. But not as much as people have you believe.

Sand-boxing limitations - user configs are not necessarily where on expects. Permissions and access to other parts of the OS can be limited, and require user adjustment.

Too many things to pay attention to, in terms of updates, as well as selecting software because of all the different formats.. (yes, this is a redundant example, on purpose)
It is confusing as hell to a lot of the Joe and Jane Users out there. Too many layers to the nachos, but not all of it tasty at all.
A (bad) analogy might be to compare this all to something like taking a PC of some sort, and using its default OS, but also having both Android and iOS apps available as well as the standard ones the OS usually uses.
Managing all that, and the overlaps and duplicate packages for applications, and updates and settings...oh my.




So, While I do lean towards 'native' packaging for most things, it is mostly comfort and familiarity. I use a few flatpaks for things I like (Cameractls and pre-releases of Gimp), but since most of my applications tend to be Plasma or Qt based, I use native debs
On my laptop, I haven't bothered to swap out Firefox for the deb version. I don't use any snaps otherwise, mainly because


I come across a LOT of people who prefer Flatpaks over most other formats, including native. Snap, imo, will eventually go away, once more non-FOSS things start becoming viable on that platform.
it is mostly us old farts who don't like certain changes that seem to really get their underwear twisted. Something always will. Pulseaudio, systemd, and even the idea of package management (debs and rpms) itself.




the above probably is a mess. I am "working", so am peeking in between things.
It is also incomplete.

Also, the well-thought opinions of others, as well as the knee-jerk stuff will appear below.............

[GreyGeek]

Having tried and rejected both snap and flatpak for essentially the same reasons I will search for a deb package (from a server I trust) or I will look for an AppImage package, which does not modify the system when one adds it to their system and marks it "executable", and when deleted leaves no traces behind. I used to have 15 AppImage packages but now I've whittled them down to 7. The one I use most often is balenaEtcher.

[Schwarzer Kater]

[…]
Question. What is the alternative if I don't want snap's? […]

I am one of the people who mostly prefers not to use Snaps and Flatpaks on my private computers when possible (but if I have to, or sometimes want to, I prefer Flatpaks - e.g. for games like 0 A.D. or Endless Sky I use a Flatpak).

To answer your question:

In case of e.g. Firefox one can happily use the version from Mozilla.org instead of the Snap that is installed in Kubuntu (and just leave the Snap version installed alongside and simply ignore it). The version from the Mozilla Team PPA can cause problems, if installed alongside the Firefox Snap.

A more radical solution would be to completely remove snapd and Snaps from Kubuntu and use either the Firefox version from Mozilla.org or the one from the Mozilla Team PPA (or the Flatpak version if one prefers that).
One has to be aware that it is necessary to temporarily install e.g. snapd (and the Firefox Snap) again before one upgrades to the next version of Kubuntu (e.g. from 23.04 to 23.10). One can then remove snapd and Snaps again after the distribution upgrade.

-> See the links in my signature to do all those things with Bash scripts.

[CharlieDaves]

Thanks ClahDoh, GreyGeek and SchwarzerKater.
Another I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS RELEVANT, is this ******* Firefox open downloaded file pop-up


Is this some *buntu B.S. or Firefox SNAP Crap??
Appologies for bad langauge but my current settings is that usually when I click on a downloaded file, it opens' it with appropriate program. When this stuff starts to happen, the only course is a power-button reset.
It's annoying the hell out of me.
Statement- I don't know what it is !
Statement- I don't know how to "get rid of it"
Statement - I've search everywhere except the local Library books for an answer
Statement - I can't figure out where to begin.

Answers- If not a snap thing, please point me towards a solution or just tell me what it is, and if it's *buntu or FireFox-UP

Thanks again to kubuntu Forums

[claydoh]

Is this some *buntu B.S. or Firefox SNAP Crap??

Or a Firefox bug, unrelated to the packaging or distro? FF should open a PDF by itself, without an external app. It sure does for me, Snap or not.
Unless the specific file really isn't a PDF, maybe?

But something is broken on yours. Here is what I see in FF as a snap, using a Zoom link that prompts for an external application:



PDFs open in the browser as expected.

[claydoh]

Also, that popup window *should* have a task bar entry, which should allow you to close it. It isn't from the browser at all.
Mine shows a KDE icon on my taskbar.

Maybe ctrl-alt-esc (if that still brings up the skull-and-crossbones app killer.

[Schwarzer Kater]

CharlieDaves
At least in "traditional" Firefox's settings one can choose what should happen with a PDF:
-> "hamburger menu" -> Settings -> General -> Files and Applications section

[claydoh]

At least in "traditional" Firefox's settings one can choose what should happen with a PDF:

But does not explain or fix the popup (from xdg-portals, NOT firefox) missing window decorations, and can't be closed normally.

This would be happening in a deb version of firefox as well, I'd wager, since both call the same xdg-portal system for this file association selection.
Of course fixing the PDF file association will help here - for that specific filetype.

[Schwarzer Kater]

I wrote "at least in traditional Firefox", because I had no Snap version at hand and was not sure if it had the same options in its settings.
And sorry, perhaps I did not read/understand well enough what the problem was…

[claydoh]

I did not read/understand well enough what the problem was…

Same here, I woke up a little later lol