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**claydoh** · Jun 02, 2023, 07:57 AM

Caveat - this is based on the latest implementations on KDE Plasma Version: 5.27, KDE Frameworks Version: 5.106.0, and Qt Version: 5.15.9 (KDE neon, plus whatever is in Fedora 38). I only have Kubuntu LTS in a virtual machine, and so far I have only used Discover to keep that updated, but otherwise mostly vanilla.

I use Discover for browsy things, and for updating flatpaks and KDE Store things.
Basically, if I see the update icon, I use that to update, though I usually manually check for apt updates first thing in the morning.

Originally posted by oshunluvr View Post

Can I add a ppa and install new software using Discover? Or is it a PITA and apt is easier for that?

No, not directly. You would need to use Kubuntu/Lubuntu's Software Sources utility that you can get to from Discover's settings. It is useful for general apt configuration, and you can add a PPA from there, but it is far far quicker and easier to use the cli.

You can paste a PPA url here:

Removing a PPA doesn't downgrade things if deleted from here, iirc. ppa-purge is still needed for that.

Originally posted by oshunluvr View Post

What about held packages, does Discover notify you of that?

No, not as far as I can tell. It should, if this is from an error, maybe?
But if they are 'phased' - not an error - they definitely don't show, which of course makes sense.

Originally posted by oshunluvr View Post

What's good or bad about Discover in your opinion?

Good -

it is far far better and stable today than what people think, especially us old timers, or those who ditched a few years ago.
though I don't use it (old timer who theoretically knows enough), and it really isn't a Discover or KDE thing per se, but the Offline Updates option may be useful and more stable option for many cases. Big Plasma upgrades without logging out, or mesa updates and forgetting to reboot until something happens to remind me (15fps in a 90 fps game lol)

bad -

Too many packages have bad or missing metadata that keeps some application packages from showing there. Some of this is in the packaging, such as things directly imported into Ubuntu from Debian. Some of this may still be from Discover itself, or its apt plugin. I have seen similar things in Fedora.
Error messaging is not accessible or thorough enough when troubleshooting, which unfortunately is common enough, no matter which distro is used. I imagine this is also the same for rpm-based and other distros.

**Schwarzer Kater** · Jun 02, 2023, 09:17 AM

claydoh has already said many things I totally agree with.

Originally posted by oshunluvr View Post

[…]
Discover updates themes, which is cool, where apt in the console does not. My habit lately is to use Discover to update themes and apt to do system updates.

Discover is a nice way to update those things if one has installed something from the KDE Store via Plasma.
I have come across an error or two regarding this, especially in older versions of Discover/Plasma, though (perhaps not only Discover's fault but also of those individual things from the KDE Store?).

Originally posted by oshunluvr View Post

[…]
What about held packages, does Discover notify you of that?
What's good or bad about Discover in your opinion?

Not showing held packages is by design, I think. Why irritate the user?
Think of the amount of people who post here because of the messages in CLI regarding held updates…

I have several people who don't use the CLI at all to update Kubuntu but solely use Discover - it has worked for them without problems (I am aware of) so far for years.
Discover is sometimes also a nice way for myself to browse for (KDE) stuff and for Flatpaks (although I install and manage the latter in CLI).
It is also nice for temporarily disabling e.g. a PPA with one click.

Discover has the advantage for the (Kubuntu) user to manage and update APT packages, Flatpaks, Snaps and KDE Store stuff all in one place.
It works with all major package managers (APT, dnf, zypper, pacman, …) - although I personally would never use it on a rolling release like Arch, openSUSE Tumbleweed or siduction (I have used it on KDE neon from time to time so far, but I can imagine that it could lead to problems there due to the "rolling" KDE stuff… Perhaps I should enable "Offline Updates" in neon

).

It has become quite a nice software center during the last years IMHO, but I think there is still room for improvement regarding the GUI and the feedback for the user.

**GreyGeek** · Jun 02, 2023, 09:28 AM

@oshunluver, I see your question and raise you this one:
When I do
sudo apt full-upgrade

I sometimes get a list of files which includes the following message, like the one I got this morning

The following packages have been kept back:
iptables libip4tc2 libip6tc2 libxtables12

I've assumed that those being held back are waiting on other packages that haven't been tagged for installation, or something like that.

However, if I use
sudo pkcon refresh
sudo pkcon update

I get no message and all the packages are installed. Why the difference?

I've read somewhere that pkcon is just a wrapper on apt. Because of that I don't use pkcon.

**oshunluvr** · Jun 02, 2023, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by GreyGeek View Post

@oshunluver, I see your question and raise you this one:
When I do
sudo apt full-upgrade

I sometimes get a list of files which includes the following message, like the one I got this morning

I've assumed that those being held back are waiting on other packages that haven't been tagged for installation, or something like that.

However, if I use
sudo pkcon refresh
sudo pkcon update

I get no message and all the packages are installed. Why the difference?

I've read somewhere that pkcon is just a wrapper on apt. Because of that I don't use pkcon.

That's interesting. I rarely use pkcon. Ill have to try that next time I see held packages

**claydoh** · Jun 02, 2023, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by oshunluvr View Post

I rarely use pkcon

Pkcon is merely what Discover is using to call apt under the GUI
Apt by proxy, if you will.
A fun thing is that the pkcon command works with other distro packaging systems, so is usable on Fedora, etc.

Originally posted by GreyGeek

Code:

The following packages have been kept back:
iptables libip4tc2 libip6tc2 libxtables12[

This is from Ubuntu's Phased updates, which started in 21.10.
Phasing is sort of random, and pkcon/discover either is simply not following this, or (more likely) randomly isn't being phased for that instance it is being run under.

https://ubuntu.com/server/docs/about...phased-updates
https://askubuntu.com/questions/1431...buntu-use-them

tl;dr, A small number of updates are sent out gradually.
you can see some of them HERE, but packages that depend on these may not show up on that page.
apt policy packagename will show if it is being phased

Code:

$ apt policy iptables
iptables:
Installed: 1.8.7-1ubuntu5.1
Candidate: 1.8.7-1ubuntu5.1
Version table:
*** 1.8.7-1ubuntu5.1 500 (phased 60%)  <----------HERE
500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-updates/main amd64 Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
1.8.7-1ubuntu5 500
500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy/main amd64 Packages

If desired, one can simply manually install any held packages with apt.

**jlittle** · Jun 02, 2023, 08:13 PM

I am disappointed that not all the tools understand phased updates, and those that do don't explain. apt update will say

Code:

<some number> packages can be upgraded. Run 'apt list --upgradable' to see them.

and then if I do run apt list--upgradable I get a list which includes the packages being held by phased updates. So then I run apt full-upgrade to find that nothing is upgraded, they're all being held. But, it doesn't say why, or what percentage of users have got the upgrade. This bit me recently; I saw a bunch of held packages and presumed it was phased updates again, but in fact I had "held broken packages". Before phased updates if I saw held packages I knew there was a problem to be sorted out.

Discover is better, it doesn't list as upgradable packages that won't be, but I'm kept in the dark about held packages.

It's not often, but for some packages I really want to know about them being upgraded, and if they're phased how far into the phasing. And, I definitely need to know if a package is held for another reason.

I've been driven to write a script that uses

Code:

function get-phased-update-percentage { pup=$(apt-cache show $1 | awk '/^Phased/ {print $2}'); echo ${pup:---}; }

to tell me what's happening for each package that's been held. And to get a list of held packages, I have to run apt-get --dry-run full-upgrade and parse the output.

**Beerislife** · Jun 02, 2023, 08:20 PM

I use both. If I see the icon I just update from the Terminal, which is always open, if the update icon doesn't go away it means there are themes and add-ons to install so I click on it and let it do its thing. Gotta love the flexibility!

**oldgeek** · Jun 03, 2023, 12:05 PM

The comments have cleared up some things for me. I usually use the cli (nala version) for updates, but was surprised to see that some things were not updated, since the update icon was still on. After doing a few Discover updates, I discovered that it was updating fonts/icons from KDE store and Flathub packages, so that makes sense now. I'm curious as to why my password is not needed for Flathub package updates, however. Discover is a nice place to browse packages, but I prefer Stacer for repositories.

**claydoh** · Jun 03, 2023, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by oldgeek View Post

I'm curious as to why my password is not needed for Flathub package updates, however

By design, as these are installed to user-accessible directories as opposed to system-wide, as Snap does by default. or they have configured Policykit to allow this for users, maybe.
Snaps are not always just for user apps, but used on Ubuntu server to add system services as well. No idea if this can be easily configured to not require a password or not. I personally prefer a password or some sort of confirmation when installing things, myself.

**Schwarzer Kater** · Jun 03, 2023, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by oldgeek View Post

[…] I'm curious as to why my password is not needed for Flathub package updates, however. […]

Because Flatpaks are installed on a user permission level by default - unless you have explicitely done otherwise.

That is one reason I prefer them to Snaps - or why I prefer podman to docker.

**GreyGeek** · Jun 03, 2023, 09:40 PM

Very informative responses! Thanks!

**oshunluvr** · Jun 06, 2023, 07:28 AM

OK, one thing I've seen twice now is Discover requiring reboots to complete updates that apt does not.

I find this curious. Is the developer of Discover just an over-cautious hand-holder or is apt not fully programmed to correctly identify the need to reboot?

I've also notice a significant lag before being ask for my password. Long enough that I'm unsure if Discover is frozen or not.

**claydoh** · Jun 06, 2023, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by oshunluvr View Post

OK, one thing I've seen twice now is Discover requiring reboots to complete updates that apt does not.

Check that you are not using the offline updates feature, which neon enabled by default a couple of years ago. This can be disabled in System Settings.

The lag, I am not sure. I don't use Discover enough outside of Store and Flatpak updates (no snaps installed currently), but will check, so maybe it is when it is checking *all* the different things it can while trying to get you a password box? Apt, KDE Store, Flatpak, Snap, and fwupd.
If you don't use flats or snaps, you can uninstall plasma-diiscover-backend-flatpak and/or -snap

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Discover vs. Apt - themes and info? Which is better?

Discover vs. Apt - themes and info? Which is better?

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