Why not GTK+ libraries in Kubuntu?

[josefko]

When I really need some software, I install it and don't think much about if it is Gnome or Kde software. I think this would be the case if we have 10 GB discs.

Now I see in this forum, that somebody doesn't want the best package manager Synaptic or Pidgin or something because he doesn't want to have GTK+ libraries inside his computer. For example Princey: "I don't want to start hosing my installation with a ton of gnome libraries".

Can somebody of that guys explain for me why it is so much the case? Is there something more than the space?

[liberalist]

Re: Why not GTK+ libraries in Kubuntu?

I think they probably mean the extra overhead GTK+ applications put on the system, because the gnome/gtk+ libraries need to be loaded into the RAM. This could make your system somewhat less responsive, depending on the amount of RAM you have. These apps also require extra hard drive space, but as you say that is not really important (because of the large hard drives we have nowadays).

Another disadvantage of GTK+ apps is that their look and feel is not entirely KDE-like and they are not as well integrated. A lot of this is resolved by Jaunty itself (it has a package that translates GTK+ widgets to Qt ones, but it does not do this perfectly as some have mentioned).

[ubersoft]

Re: Why not GTK+ libraries in Kubuntu?

My main beef is that gtk apps don't really integrate into the KDE environment very well. Even with the GTK+ widget translation that jaunty does, there are some applications that refuse to conform -- which usually means the menu fonts are huge and I have to use the nautilus file browser when selecting files.
Firefox and Inkscape, both of which are pretty well integrated into the KDE environment, still use gnome's !@#$% file browser.

... I despise Nautilus.

[Luigi]

Re: Why not GTK+ libraries in Kubuntu?

I think they probably mean the extra overhead GTK+ applications put on the system, because the gnome/gtk+ libraries need to be loaded into the RAM. This could make your system somewhat less responsive, depending on the amount of RAM you have. These apps also require extra hard drive space, but as you say that is not really important (because of the large hard drives we have nowadays).

Another disadvantage of GTK+ apps is that their look and feel is not entirely KDE-like and they are not as well integrated. A lot of this is resolved by Jaunty itself (it has a package that translates GTK+ widgets to Qt ones, but it does not do this perfectly as some have mentioned).

Yes, I think the same. The problem is the bad integration of the GTK+ software in kde. But at the same time I see also stupid religion wars.
On my pc run both gtk+ and qt program if I need it and I live happily!

[kjjjjshab]

Re: Why not GTK+ libraries in Kubuntu?

1. The GTK apps sometimes cause weird unintended issues... like when I plug i an external HD i get a gnome-mount couldn't blah blah blah error.

2. Inconsistent GUI is very annoying.

3. The gtk-qt-engine which would ~fix #2 causes about a million scim-gtk processes to start.

4. More security updates every day for no "good" reason.

5. Distros still strive to fit onto a CD rather than a DVD, so the extra libs eat up room that could instead be used for more Qt4 apps.

[abalone]

Re: Why not GTK+ libraries in Kubuntu?

I'm not sure it's possible for me to do without GTK+ apps without depriving myself of some of the better (and sometimes only) tools. Audacity, GIMP, XSane and Abiword, to name some of the better-known ones...

...all else being equal, though, I'd rather use Qt apps than GTK+ apps. I don't mind the inconsistent look, but so far I haven't figured out how to give GTK+ apps nice fonts. They "pretty up" as soon as I run gnome-settings-daemon (even when I run it and then quit it) -- but when I don't, they're so... thin. Anti-aliased, sure -- but thin, and with unsightly extra pixels marring the insides of the curves of, say, the "D"s and "P"s. Where's the config for that?

Edit:

** (gnome-settings-daemon:26536): WARNING **: Failed to acquire org.gnome.SettingsDaemon

** (gnome-settings-daemon:26536): WARNING **: Could not acquire name

Okay, so that just stopped working as well, and I haven't a clue what to do about it.

[josefko]

Re: Why not GTK+ libraries in Kubuntu?

When I read in some of your replies that Gnome applications take more memory and processes I checked it out to see what we are talking about. Here are the results from System Monitor:
Begin 216 MB and 124 processes
1. Gnome Pidgin needs 12 MB and 2 processes, 2 MB and 0 processes remains after close
2. Kde Kopete needs 21 MB and 6 processes, 8 MB and 0 processes remains after close
3. Gnome Synaptic needs 18 MB and 3 processes, 0 MB and 3 processes remains
4. Kde Adept Manager needs 19 MB and 9 processes, 7 MB and 6 processes remains
5. Kde KPackageKit needs 39 MB and 3 processes, 34 MB and 2 processes remains
End 267 MB and 132 processes
Did I miss something?

[ubersoft]

Re: Why not GTK+ libraries in Kubuntu?

No one in this thread has said that GTK uses more resources than QT. A few people were saying they didn't want the extra resources GTK used on top of the KDE resources they were already using, but that's a different matter.

[Princey]

Re: Why not GTK+ libraries in Kubuntu?

Doesn't want isn't the same as I would rather not. There ARE GTK programs that I have to live with, but like others have already pointed out, it's more to do with aesthetics and resources rather than disk space. Of course, the DISCLAIMER here is that this is MY VERY OWN PERSONAL OPINION.

I never said I didn't want synaptic, I only wished KDE's redition of the front end was as complete as Synaptic. I do have Synaptic installed, however, if you look at the overhead resources brought in, you'd understand my point especially on machines where it's memory and processor power that's the gauging and limited factor, not hard drive space. GTK programs just don't look that nice running under QT (thunderbird and firefox comes quickly to mind) as compared to native QT programmes. Some can be overlooked, others, well, just doesn't fit in.

Do note, I wasn't asking the community to fit in with me, by the way, was only stating my opinion. Had you followed the thread you quoted from, you'd see it was more pointing out the ineptness of KpackageKit rather than taking a pot shot at GTK.

[KeithZG]

Re: Why not GTK+ libraries in Kubuntu?

Firefox and Inkscape, both of which are pretty well integrated into the KDE environment, still use gnome's !@#$% file browser.

... I despise Nautilus.

That's actually one of the main reasons that back in the day I started using Konqueror more than Firefox, and why I continue that trend into the present (writing this in Konqueror on Jaunty right now).

5. Distros still strive to fit onto a CD rather than a DVD, so the extra libs eat up room that could instead be used for more Qt4 apps.

While I'm a big fan of using the least-required level of technology, the last four times I've burnt off Linux distro CDs it's been on DVDs, since they're cheaper these days (and hell, DVD readers have been around since the Pentium II era). It's one of the things I respect about Knoppix, that they've entirely switched over to the DVD being their main release (although for a live distro it's a bit different tale obviously, but you get the idea).

Every other point of yours is quite true, though, especially the unforeseen weird errors (but to be fair that's more the full GNOME's fingerprint than GTK).

Do note, I wasn't asking the community to fit in with me, by the way, was only stating my opinion. Had you followed the thread you quoted from, you'd see it was more pointing out the ineptness of KpackageKit rather than taking a pot shot at GTK.

Oh man, KPackageKit makes me glad I've long since gotten used to using apt-get and aptitude in 90% of cases (now THERE's a low footprint).

[kjjjjshab]

Re: Why not GTK+ libraries in Kubuntu?

Yeah, I forgot the other great weird issue with prop. nvidia and a blinking caret in GTK apps (other than FF for some strange reason)... don't get me started with that one.