Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

[hansdevr]

Not sure whether this topic should go here, so moderators feel free to move it to a more appropriate place...

I switched to Kubuntu because I was fed up with Windows. Fed up with viruses destroying my PC, fed up with programs crashing on me whenever I forgot to save my work, fed up with paying lots of money for programs that did not perform...

So I switched. Working with Kubuntu for 4 months now, started out with Intrepid and just upgraded to Jaunty. Had some starting problems (wireless seems to remain a problem...), but now everything is running like a charm.

I just have ONE real problem with Kubuntu. Why is it so HARD to install a program?!? Under windows there was a simple installer for ANY program, while under Kubuntu there are a gazillion different ways of installing programs! Of course, my favourite was Synaptec and now the Package Manager, but sometimes you want to install something that can't be found there.. THEN you have a problem. .deb packages, tarballs, program sources... And then you DO find a friendly install-savvy co-user, who instructs you how to install your new program, only to find you (and you alone, on the entire planet) can NOT.

And I'm not even mentioning Wine!! Everyone's going on about how fantastic Wine is and that you CAN run terragen on it! To be honest, I have tried almost anything to get to work under Wine, and I have had ZIP luck!! Not even ONE program will run under Wine.

Enough whining. Why isn't there a sort of SUPER-INSTALLER in Kubuntu? A program that allows you to drag and drop anything onto it which it will install without any squeeking and nagging? Isn't it about time such a program should be developed?

[fidesratioque]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

Why not just use the package manager? Really easy.

[pansz]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

Enough whining. Why isn't there a sort of SUPER-INSTALLER in Kubuntu? A program that allows you to drag and drop anything onto it which it will install without any squeeking and nagging? Isn't it about time such a program should be developed?

The Windows-way of installing a program is *very* insecure, since the setup program is a binary program you don't know what the hell it will do in the background and you don't know if it will damage your computer or contains some backdoor or trojan-horse.

Then comes the Linux way: integrate the "setup program" into the OS and the program should only have data to be installed, instead of providing its own "setup program".

The above should work if there's only one Linux distribution in the world.


Sadly, there's millions of Linux distributions in the world and they are different. You may ask why is it so HARD to install a program? the answer is simple: the developers are using different Linux distributions, and they will have different preferences on program packging. thus providing different packages with different installation method.


Then you know why it is so hard? because there's so many Linux distributions.

If Kubuntu rules and all Linux users switched to Kubuntu, you will then found everything much simpler, because every Linux program will then distributed in .deb.


Windows installation is somewhat easier, simply because most windows users are using Windows XP or Vista, only two "distributions" of Windows. If there are millions of Windows "distributions", you will found all kind of windows installers and installation of Windows program would be much harder.

[fidesratioque]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

I think a common format for installing Linux programs would be good. Perhaps there are technical reasons I don't understand, but couldn't one just make the .deb file the default for installations across all distros, without impacting each distro's individual flavor and personality?

That said, the package manager really does make installing stuff easy. I mostly use that, anyway.

[The Liquidator]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

Well there is an instal file that is common to all the distros, the tar.gz file.

In simplest terms download the file and extract it. Then run the install script in a terminal as root. Job done. Apart from that last bit, where you need the command line, it's the same as you do in windows.

On the question of Wine if you are dual-booting if you copy the dlls from the windows\system32 folder to the corresponding one in home/.wine. you may well find wine a different beast. I run Quicken (albeit 2002) MS Word Viewer 2003, and Dragon Naturally Speaking 9 in wine.

HTH

[barbolani]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

You have basically two ways of installing something, each one has its own variants.

1- From a .deb package. This package can live in a repository or be downloaded as a file. It's always better to use a repository as it provides automatic updates and upgrades as well as dependency resolution, etc. While you may see a lot of tools with funky names (apt-get, kpackagekit, synaptic, aptitude) they share the same common back end. Sitck with one, probably synaptic, and you'll be happy.

The standard xUbuntu install comes by default with some standard repositories, but nothing prevents you to add more. For example, Skype can be installed from their own repository or a stand alone .deb file.

2- Source code. The installation instructions are usually attached in a file, and the requirements can vary a lot from one app to another, and you're required to install the dependent libraries yourself by any other means.

My advice would be, always prefer to use in this order (1) A repository (2) Package files and last (3) source code.

If you find that you're constantly needing to install from source code, you should look for additional repositories that may already have packaged the apps you need. Failing that, look for package .deb files. And failing that yes, there is no alternative but to go to the source code tarball. But it is always worth Googling and asking the forums for packages.

In my experience, 99.9% of what I need is already packaged. For me, the repository approach is clearly superior to Windows. I've had in the past to compile some apps under Windows and found it way more difficult and time consuming, if only because the compilation tools and most of the dependent libraries can be installed via packages.

And I've yet to see a version of Windows that can be upgraded to the next one at the same time as the applications and all the dependencies with nearly zero problems. This is a key advantage of package repositories.

[hansdevr]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

First of all, AND LET THERE BE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT:

Windows SUX, and Kubuntu is a dream come true to me. If you stick to the package managers, there is no problem (although I do not understand why most websites don't hand out lines to add to your package sources, and why some don't bother to mention things are different for an amd64 user (like yours truly).

The package manager is great! No question about that either! But when it comes to annoying stuff (why didn't any of the YouTube movies show up anymore when I upgraded to Jaunty?!?), there are still some things to wish for.

Nr. 1 on MY wish list would be a smart installer, that can handle anything you throw at it. Checks for trojans etcetera should be built into that installer. I know it would be a hard task, but it can be done, I should think.

Thanks for all your tips, but I still haven't heard explanations why some things don't work on MY system (amd quad core with 8 gigs of ram) that will and do work with entire smiling and happy communities...

[toad]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

Okay, these mails are too long for me to read properly - I like it more split up, each problem/moan/despair neatly separated so people can deal with it each on its own merit.

So here the point re trojans: please do not forget that this is open source software. ANYBODY who fools around with code in a malicious way will be an outcast before s/he can say "I know I mucked it up!". And this goes for every single programme that you can lay your hands on in the official repositories. IF you chose to enable unsupported repos (and I do not count medibuntu or launchpad ones as such) then you are on your own. That much must be clear. Compare it to going down to your local farmer and getting your veg from there or from a geezer you've never seen before in your life and who you are not likely to see ever again - who do you trust more? Simple, innit? Same of course goes for M$.

[Qqmike]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

editorial details ... from above
"Windows SUX, and Kubuntu is a dream come true to me."
Wrong terminology/spelling of SUCKS.
SUX is sux => sidux magic.
This is a Linux environment, after all.

[toad]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

And while we are off topic - Qqmike, my TurboTwins45 mobo decided it had had enough after only two months Got to wait up to six weeks for a replacement :P

[GreyGeek]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

Hansdevr,
Unlike the monopolist, who controls everything related to its OS, Linux/FOSS is an environment of freedom and choice, as you no doubt have learned by now. It is also an environment of responsibility.

This means that ANYONE with the appropriate skills can create any program they want, to do anything they want. If they start with someone else's GPL'd program then they have to honor the GPL and IF they release their program to others they HAVE to make available on request the same source that produced the binary they released, IF they only released a binary, which raises another point. A coder can also decide in what form and how his program will be distributed. In days gone bye, when HD space was at a premium, programs were compiled as dynamic executables, dependent on required libraries being on the user's HD. That's OK as long as every program that used Library "X" used the same verison of Library "X". If the creator of Library "X" updated it and changed the vector table addresses, or the parameter requirements, a program that used to work fine suddenly fails after the libarary is updated. So, some resolved that problem by keeping multiple versions of a library on a machine, which defeats the idea of a small exectuable. The other form of binary release is Static. This means that the coder compiles his binary so that it includes the libraries the program needs. Static binaries can be megabytes larger than dynamic binaries, but in these days HD space is cheap. A static program in the "ELF" binary format should run without problems on any Linux machine IF the machine has the hardware the program expects. If the program is a poorly made 3D game that needs accelerated video and your machine doesn't have it, and the coder never checks for it, the binary will fail to run, or lock the machine up, or crash it, or damage files or hardware. These problems may occur during startup, partway into running it, in the middle of the game, or at the close of the game. It all depends on when the coder's code executes some particularly poorly written function.

This also means that while some coder may have the skills to write a program there is no guarantee that they know how to package that program as a .deb or .rpm, the two principal program packaging systems, or that they want to. Some are simply lazy. It is very easy to use the tar utility to "zip" up a development directory and its contents and then email it or upload it. When someone receives or downloads a tar (or tar.gz, etc...) and untars it into a directory, "cd"'s to that directory, and then runs "configure" followed by "make" and then followed by "make install", there is also NO guarantee that the recipient has the same libraries installed on his machine that the developer had on hers. The compile could fail for lack of a dependent library. Or, it may compile but fail to run because the library was the wrong version. The "configure" command supplied with the program, IF there was one supplied, is supposed to determine what is missing from the host machine and inform the user of any missing dependencies. Many rookie or lazy coders fail to include a "configure" app with their code, usually for the same reason they don't package it up into a deb or rpm package.

Before a coder is allowed to upload a program onto a vetted repository s/he must demonstrate appropriate skills. This is usually evident when examining their source code, and their packaging specs file. Rookie's source code usually demonstrates spaghetti, improper variable naming and declaration, improper use of scope, poor classes or no classes or too many classes, lack of input validation and buffering which would prevent exploitation, and the list goes on. Installing software from un-vetted repositories does two things: exposes your installation to infection, especially if you installed it as root, and makes the job of volunteer helpers here at the Kubuntu forum more difficult because they may not be familiar with the rogue application.

Moral of this story: unless you know absolutely what you are doing, install applications only from vetted repositories listed in the forum.

Footnote: there is an interesting form of application installation and removal technology called "Klike". It is at http://klik.atekon.de/ I am not advocating using this method to install software, but I have used it on some previous distros that I have used. It was (is?) dependent on the user running KDE, and there are indications that KJJ users are using it. Kilk applications are like the static binary I mentioned above, except that when an application is installed it is given its own directory and is "mounted" almost like an ISO file. Into that directory goes your config files, your data files, documents you created using the application, etc.... If you ever want to delete the application you merely delete the directory it is in. No other files of any kind need to be removed because nothing related to the application is stored outside the directory that was created when it was installed. Nice concept.

[fidesratioque]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

Wow, thanks, GreyGeek, that post was really interesting and insightful.

I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out and explain it. (No sarcasm here, seriously.)

Thanks a lot.

[hansdevr]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

Moral of this story: unless you know absolutely what you are doing, install applications only from vetted repositories listed in the forum.

Footnote: there is an interesting form of application installation and removal technology called "Klike". It is at http://klik.atekon.de/ I am not advocating using this method to install software, but I have used it on some previous distros that I have used. It was (is?) dependent on the user running KDE, and there are indications that KJJ users are using it. Kilk applications are like the static binary I mentioned above, except that when an application is installed it is given its own directory and is "mounted" almost like an ISO file. Into that directory goes your config files, your data files, documents you created using the application, etc.... If you ever want to delete the application you merely delete the directory it is in. No other files of any kind need to be removed because nothing related to the application is stored outside the directory that was created when it was installed. Nice concept.

Thanks for the moralistic summary. I probably needed that as I'm indeed not knowing what I'm doing (yet...)
And there's also no sarcasm in my last remark.

In time, I'll learn.

[fidesratioque]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

I'm not ashamed to say I always use the package manager. I'm not a programmer, unfortunately: "art is long, life is short." Only so many things I can master before I die. Perhaps some day I'll have the chance to learn how to compile stuff, but even then I'd probably screw it up.

[hansdevr]

Re: Why does it have to be difficult?!??!??

HAHA!! Don't be too fatalistic about it. I started out with DOS and I mastered that. Then 7,623 versions of MS Windows, and I mastered that too (except the irritations - they never left...). Linux can't be that hard. Forums like these help. A LOT!!