howto use kde3 in intrepid?

[paxmark1]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

And you might not want the new kdm, xorg and kernel until some things shake out. Whole lot of debugging going on.

In kubuntu intrepid for me and others
intel video drivers (many) have flickers and the screen goes black (500 ms) and after the first three or four keystrokes a thin black line 2 cm long appears at a random point verically that starts on the left.
(not happening in gnome for many)
This is triaged for bug fixes as medium.

Happy to be back in KDE 3.5 writing this.

peace

[Troberg]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

I've tried the latest Intrepid beta now, and it's far from being an equal to KDE3 when it comes to features. My reaction is still "Where have all the settings gone?!?!". There are some improvements, but too much is still missing to make it worth it. I love some of the new stuff and some of the new thinking (it's rare to see some really new UI concepts today), but I miss a lot that I need.

I have no doubt that it will be great, but it is a bold step and I still feel it's too early so change. To be quite honest, I would say that in my opinion, KDE4 should have been held in beta for a version or two more, until it was a complete upgrade for KDE3.

As it stands now, KDE is in a very real danger of doing a Vista.

Personally, I will stay in KDE3 for a while, and it will also be my recommendation when I recommend Kubuntu to others.

[aged hippy]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

I've tried the latest Intrepid beta now, and it's far from being an equal to KDE3 when it comes to features. My reaction is still "Where have all the settings gone?!?!". There are some improvements, but too much is still missing to make it worth it. I love some of the new stuff and some of the new thinking (it's rare to see some really new UI concepts today), but I miss a lot that I need.

I have no doubt that it will be great, but it is a bold step and I still feel it's too early so change. To be quite honest, I would say that in my opinion, KDE4 should have been held in beta for a version or two more, until it was a complete upgrade for KDE3.

As it stands now, KDE is in a very real danger of doing a Vista.

Personally, I will stay in KDE3 for a while, and it will also be my recommendation when I recommend Kubuntu to others.

I have to say, i agree completely, i've even gone so far as to remove it from the HD, so that i'm not constantly tempted to dabble..

I feel that Kubuntu, in their haste to bring a totally new concept in desktops to the public, have carried out an on-target foot-shooting excercise.

I find it interesting that Mandriva have released a version of KDE in which it is claimed that 3.5.10 and 4.1.0 happily co-exist.

I also feel that the 4.1.0 desktop is a ground-breaking concept, and i could easily get to prefer it, but i will stay firmly on the 3.5.10 desktop until a stable 4.1.x is released -- preferably one which will co-exist with the 3.5.10.
I slightly resent being forced to use the new desktop, which - lets face it - doesn't actually do anything new, but does the same thing in different ways, but with the option to completely customize one's own enviroment.

[Fintan]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

As it stands now, KDE is in a very real danger of doing a Vista.

I simply do not see this.

First and foremost kde3.5.x will be supported by kde for a very long time, and by extension by kubuntu.

Second: Nobody is forcing anyone to install Intrepid.

Third: Yes, kde.4.2.x will rock. I use the neon-kde-nightly on a daily basis and it is already very cool.
Five different desktop views is just one of the cool bits.

Do, I miss a few things? Sure.
Like telling my computer to make me a bloody mary and dictate my letters / emails. But kde3.5.x couldn't do that either.

Quintessence? The choice is yours, enjoy the fact that you have one

Edit:

I find it interesting that Mandriva have released a version of KDE in which it is claimed that 3.5.10 and 4.1.0 happily co-exist.

Kubuntu offers that as well with hardy :P

[Troberg]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

First and foremost kde3.5.x will be supported by kde for a very long time, and by extension by kubuntu.

Will it? As far as I can see, it will be gone in a few weeks.

Second: Nobody is forcing anyone to install Intrepid.

That's a weak argument. There are very good reasons to upgrade, and users will get stuck between a rock and hard place, trying to decide if they want to risk missing out on important system updates or if they should risk running a desktop that's still experimental. Putting users in a situation like that and defending it with "Nobody is forced to upgrade" is not the proper way to handle things.

Third: Yes, kde.4.2.x will rock.

Perhaps, but I will need to see that before I decide, and that will take some time. Until then, I'm stuck without proper updates on my legace version of the OS, which is also an undesirable situation.

Do, I miss a few things? Sure.
Like telling my computer to make me a bloody mary and dictate my letters / emails. But kde3.5.x couldn't do that either.

That's another non-argument. Count the number of settings you have to play with. Remember that each setting in KDE3 is there for a reason, someone needs it. What will all those people who needs a missing setting do?

Look at, for instance, the panel. In KDE3, you can configure it to do, look and work exactly the way you want. In KDE4, it's like it or leave it. The same goes for almost all sections in the settings.

I'm a professional developer, and I wouldn't even use my own stuff in the first version after a "dump-and-rewrite" or major revision in a critical environment. Things are broken in the first versions, that's just how it works. One has to keep the old versions until the new is mature enough, and it's not enough to just keep them in a frozen state, they must be kept alive.

As an example, at "my" company, which makes software for the public sector, we have a program for handling the legal intricacies of traffic regulations. It was rewritten from scratch three years ago (release date three years ago, not project start, that was another three years earlier), yet, we still keep the previous generation alive and active while the new system is maturing. Our customers rely on us to keep things working, and we do what it takes to keep things working.

Kubuntu offers that as well with hardy

That would have made sense if Kubuntu was only KDE, but it's a complete OS. I need the rest of the stuff to be up to date.

[Fintan]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

Will it? As far as I can see, it will be gone in a few weeks.

Go to kde.org and find out.

That's a weak argument. There are very good reasons to upgrade, and users will get stuck between a rock and hard place, trying to decide if they want to risk missing out on important system updates or if they should risk running a desktop that's still experimental. Putting users in a situation like that and defending it with "Nobody is forced to upgrade" is not the proper way to handle things.

This is not an argument. It is simply a fact. Kubuntu is not putting any one in a "situation"

As an example, at "my" company, which makes software for the public sector, we have a program for handling the legal intricacies of traffic regulations. It was rewritten from scratch three years ago (release date three years ago, not project start, that was another three years earlier), yet, we still keep the previous generation alive and active while the new system is maturing. Our customers rely on us to keep things working, and we do what it takes to keep things working.

I'm stuck without proper updates on my legacy version of the OS, which is also an undesirable situation.

That is not quite accurate. You will get updates for 8.04 for a long tine to come.


As a very good friend said a long time ago, if the machine is not broken don't fix it.
Anybody involved in testing / using kde4.x is either having a great time (like me) or not. That is the whole point. It is beta.

That would have made sense if Kubuntu was only KDE, but it's a complete OS. I need the rest of the stuff to be up to date.

Now you have really lost me

[sjhstorm]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

As it stands now, KDE is in a very real danger of doing a Vista

I think KDE would quite like to have KDM on 90+% of all new computers sold

[claydoh]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

Actually, if someone has the time and some skill, I think it might be a fantastic idea for those interested in building and maintaining KDE3 for Intrepid to hop on freenode irc, and go seek some guidance from the active Kubuntu devs on #kubuntu-devel. They would know what would be difficult and what would be easy for a group to set up a ppa for this.

[madscientist159]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

Actually, if someone has the time and some skill, I think it might be a fantastic idea for those interested in building and maintaining KDE3 for Intrepid to hop on freenode irc, and go seek some guidance from the active Kubuntu devs on #kubuntu-devel. They would know what would be difficult and what would be easy for a group to set up a ppa for this.

I'm already building and maintaining KDE3 for Intrepid. Right now I have opted to host the repository on my servers instead of using the PPAs so that I can work around several odd little bugs that occur during KDE3 compilation, and to maintain control over the entire build/upload process.

As I mentioned before, if there is something wrong with the repository please let me know! I am now running 3 fully updated Intrepid machines with KDE3.5.10 from my repository with no issues--one of them is up 24/7 with a KDE3.5 session running continuously and has not crashed once.

As a little bonus, I have finished building Compiz and Emerald for both i386 and amd64...they both work great!

If, with the latest batch of Intrepid updates, kdelibs-data gives you a conflicting file error, simply remove the package (sudo dpkg -r --force-all kdelibs-data), update your APT repository (sudo apt-get update), and reinstall kdelibs-data (sudo apt-get -f install). One of the updates added a file that conflicts with a file in my kdelibs-data package, and to get the update out as fast as possible I manually edited the DEB file, hence the need for this procedure. Once Intrepid goes to full release, I will increment the version numbers as I am supposed to.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the source uploads are also complete--you can now use apt-get source on any package in the repository. Just add the deb-src http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/ intrepid main line to your /etc/apt/sources.list file and run sudo apt-get update. If you find a missing source package please let me know--it means I missed one accidentally and I will upload it ASAP.

[Troberg]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

This is not an argument. It is simply a fact. Kubuntu is not putting any one in a "situation"

Bollocks. The people behind Kubuntu has made a choice, and that choice is creating a lot of trouble for a lot of people.

As a very good friend said a long time ago, if the machine is not broken don't fix it.

That used to be true, but nowadays, with a quickly changing technological landscape and rapidly changing threats, you need to be proactive.

Anybody involved in testing / using kde4.x is either having a great time (like me) or not. That is the whole point. It is beta.

Exactly, it's beta, and yet it's being put as the only choice in a product that needs to be stable.

Go to kde.org and find out.

Yes, KDE will support it, but switching to a stable Linux distro on over a dozen machines, several of them complicated application servers, is a huge lot of work. It would be really nice if one could stay in one distro that was reliable.

I think KDE would quite like to have KDM on 90+% of all new computers sold

Even if most of the customers dumped it in favour of something else within a few weeks? That's what's happening to Vista.

Actually, if someone has the time and some skill, I think it might be a fantastic idea for those interested in building and maintaining KDE3 for Intrepid to hop on freenode irc

I'd love to, but I'm not an OS developer and my Linux developing skills are still limited (although I'm working on it).

I'm already building and maintaining KDE3 for Intrepid.

Great work. Tell me if I can assist in some way.

[ElZorro]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

Hmm Hardy KDE3 in Intrepid with no desktop, fraught with danger I fear.
Even installing seamonkey 1.1.12 from intrepid repos to Kubuntu hardy breaks Hardy, quite typical ubuntu anarchic packaging from version to version.
Not sure what Hardy KDE 3.5.9 would do to intrepid, let alone what intrepid repository packages would do to to a hybrid system, it would not be pretty I think.Pin Pin---
The ubuntu packaging will Fork on forever, such is the nature of this frantic beast, racing headlong without respite, into the future.
We badly need a KDE3.5x version as an Intrepid option, as KDE 4.0x is turning into less than transparent bloat ware, a bit like, I hate to compare , MS vista.
It has no switchable interface to a more transparent classic view either.
Oh Dear
Good night, good luck
El Zorro

[madscientist159]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

I'm already building and maintaining KDE3 for Intrepid.

Great work. Tell me if I can assist in some way.

Well, what I need most at this point is someone who can test KDE3.5 on Intrepid. Upgrade a couple of machines; make sure that the upgrade and the resulting system are both stable. Also, if there are some KDE3.5 apps that Kubuntu has decided not to package, and that I have also overlooked (there are a lot of packages!), let me know which ones and I will package them up. If something breaks during the upgrade process, copy the entire output of the apt-get run (you might want to increase the terminal buffer size ) and send it to me so that I can fix the problem.

Also, if anyone here understands the Compiz packaging/build system and could build/package the new Compiz version against KDE3.5 on Intrepid I would appreciate it. If not, then I will have to pick through those files and see how it works; this may take some time. I can handle KDE3.5 updates (and have already fixed some problems that cropped up with the new Intrepid HAL), but not Compiz just yet.

Oh, and I still agree with Troberg 100%--I also maintain several Kubuntu machines at my workplace, and the way the network is set up they are exposed directly to the Internet. Not updating them would leave me wide open to attack...not good! And I don't think running KDE4.x over XRDP and a slow Internet connection would work very well, not to mention that the users of these systems are used to Windows XP's interface and would force my company to switch these machines back to XP if I installed KDE4.1.

[claydoh]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

I suggested a ppa repository as an aid to packaging and publishing your work.
The ppa system actually does all the grunt work once you have set up how you want your packages to be built, so it saves you that work, as well as the free bandwidth (and you still have control, as it builds what you ask how you ask) . It also offers the opportunity to have others help with packaging if a group is created on Launchpad.

I suggested chatting with the kubuntu devs on irc as they would have some good pointers to get you started, as well as pointing out what might break, or where the problem areas will be.

Not updating them would leave me wide open to attack...not good!

Hardy's KDE still has a year of security updates coming, and the non-KDE parts are still covered that way till the next LTS release.

Count the number of settings you have to play with. Remember that each setting in KDE3 is there for a reason, someone needs it. What will all those people who needs a missing setting do?

Um, many of these settings you are missing had to be created for 3.x (well after 3.2 was released as a matter of fact) by someone who wanted to tweak or adjust something, got an itch, and coded it. The KDE world did not come to a screeching halt back then waiting for these didn't exist. (I have a settings fetish myself btw)

[jglen490]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

I too have grown to like KDE 3, which is why I have (thus far) chosen to go with Kubuntu and have stayed with it for the past few years, rather than some other distro.

But you know, nothing worthwhile stays constant in this life -- or in software. KDE has chosen to move on with their product rather than let is set still and stagnate. It was that way from KDE 1 to 2, and from KDE 2 to 3. Now it's that way from KDE 3 to 4. You can work with it, or not -- your choice, just be prepared to be left behind. Or you can learn what KDE 4 is all about, how it works, and how to make it (and not KDE 3) better. It's Linux, it's about choice.

[Troberg]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

Um, many of these settings you are missing had to be created for 3.x (well after 3.2 was released as a matter of fact) by someone who wanted to tweak or adjust something, got an itch, and coded it. The KDE world did not come to a screeching halt back then waiting for these didn't exist. (I have a settings fetish myself btw)

Sure, but one can get dependent on something new as well, even if one used to get along nicely without it at one time. I've got a bunch of scripts that rely on some very obscure things in KDE3, which make my life a lot easier.

Well, what I need most at this point is someone who can test KDE3.5 on Intrepid. Upgrade a couple of machines; make sure that the upgrade and the resulting system are both stable.

OK, will do. It may take a couple of days, though, maybe even until next week, as this is a very busy week for me.

But you know, nothing worthwhile stays constant in this life -- or in software. KDE has chosen to move on with their product rather than let is set still and stagnate. It was that way from KDE 1 to 2, and from KDE 2 to 3. Now it's that way from KDE 3 to 4.

I'm not disputing the step forward, I'm disputing cutting off the KDE3 leg before we have sufficient strength in the KDE4 leg to stand on it.

KDE4 had been released early, too early in my opinion. To keep KDE3 as an alternative for a release or two would have eased the transition and made it much safer.

Or you can learn what KDE 4 is all about, how it works, and how to make it (and not KDE 3) better.

I'm not saying that KDE3 should recieve much development, but it should be an alternative until KDE4 is ready for production use. As it is now, Kubuntu has a gap where it can't be used on production machines, because KDE3 has been taken out and KDE4 is not ready for it yet.

It's Linux, it's about choice.

The problem is that changing distro on a large number of production machines is not really a choice. Try telling your boss (who might already have been pursuaded from a position of distrust against Linux) "You know the Kubuntu machines we've been running for a year? Well, we need to change to another distro, which will take about two man months, plus new training for the users. Oh, and we'll run into a whole bunch of new oddities we will have to sort out when we try to get our software to work, so the CRM system and economy system might be down for a week or two...". Now, do you see that, sometimes, there is no real choice?