howto use kde3 in intrepid?

[madscientist159]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

Why does it completely remove kde4?
That's quite extreme imo. Why not do it as its done in Hardy - set everything to go to kde3-specific directories. You'd get more people trying it out, with less chance of breaking someone's entire system? I sincerely hope noone uses these packages on a production system!

Also if you build your own packages and offer a public repo, you should not list the (K)ubuntu developers as the maintainers of your packages. And have a really big red sign on your site somewhere with all then requisite warnings

Ooops...I didn't realize they were showing up as package maintainers. I will have to see how I can remove them (I am not currently as familiar with the Debian packaging system as I'd like to be.)

Simply put, to change ALL the KDE3 packages, of which there are over a hundred, to a new directory would be a massive undertaking that I do not have the time to do. That would most likely involve picking through every single package's source code, trying to make sure that the Kubuntu shared files are accessible from KDE3 while KDE3 doesn't stomp on KDE4. It was bad enough getting KDE3 to actually compile under Intrepid and then updating all the dependencies!

I do hope that no one tries this on a production system without testing it elsewhere first. It is definitely alpha quality only, and is available mainly for stubborn users like me who just can't get past KDE4.1's deficiencies yet. Once KDE4.2 or 4.3 comes out I hope there is no need for this repository any longer.

[Troberg]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

My two cents:

KDE4 looks promising, and I will most likely switch to it eventually. However, there are a few requirements before that will happen:

* Equal or better than KDE3 feature wise. I will not step down, because, being a power user, I know that that one missing feature will probably be the one I really need.

* Stable. So far, KDE3 has been rock solid, while KDE4 is so-so.

* Proven. I have several machines that needs to have practically 100% uptime. Before I can risk a switch on them, I need to have a year or so of field testing of KDE4.

I'm not adverse when it comes to new stuff, and I will try KDE4 on some machines. However, there are machines where a product under such heavy development and in such an early phase in its life cycle will simply not be possible.

Sticking with Hardy is not an option, as I want to remain updated in other areas.

The efforts of madscientist159 are nice and commandable, but something "more official" would be needed for important machines.

I would consider the perfect solution to be for the people behind the official repositories to support the work of madscientist159 and make sure his repos are good enough, then include them in the official repos, giving us an option.

Also, consider the newbies. I've tried to get my sister to try Kubuntu (Hardy/KDE4), but some trouble in KDE4 because it wasn't quite ready got her annoyed and she ended up with Windows XP instead.

Frankly, we can't afford one or two versions of Kubuntu that feels experimental. We must provide a stable and proven platform, at least as an alternative.

Cutting edge is fine, but sometimes things just need to keep working, no matter what. KDE4 will be great, but currently, it's still trying to walk.

[dentaku65]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

+1 here.
I really dislike the approach of kde4, but I like performance and look... but for me plasmoids like are now are a waste of time of functionality; the good way for Intrepid (from my point of view) is to still have both kde3 and kde4, I really don't understand why the Kubuntu team did not make this choice....

[sjhstorm]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

I'm using Hardy remix Kde 4.1.1, personally I'm looking forward to Intrepid as it will then be .kde not .kde4 which is a pain. Mind you I have found kde 4.1.1 to be remarkably solid.

However many people do not find it so and or do not like the direction of kde 4, but this is the way KDE is going and the KDE dev's are putting all their time and effort into 4.

I for one think it is about time Kubuntu became a leading KDE distro and I think they are making a brave but correct decision. For those that require a super stable system, stick with Hardy & Kde 3.5, as Hardy is only six months old why would one be looking to upgrade to Intrepid (even if it had 3.5) if you need rock solid performance. Come Jan 09 KDE 4.2 will be out and may well have everything that people require.

Anyway that's just my 2 pence worth

[dentaku65]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

I'm using Hardy remix Kde 4.1.1, personally I'm looking forward to Intrepid as it will then be .kde not .kde4 which is a pain. Mind you I have found kde 4.1.1 to be remarkably solid.

However many people do not find it so and or do not like the direction of kde 4, but this is the way KDE is going and the KDE dev's are putting all their time and effort into 4.

I for one think it is about time Kubuntu became a leading KDE distro and I think they are making a brave but correct decision. For those that require a super stable system, stick with Hardy & Kde 3.5, as Hardy is only six months old why would one be looking to upgrade to Intrepid (even if it had 3.5) if you need rock solid performance. Come Jan 09 KDE 4.2 will be out and may well have everything that people require.

Anyway that's just my 2 pence worth

I think that remain with Hardy is not an option, because all other stuff beside kde is updated and (I would) like to use it.
For my needs the solution will be:
1) (better one) a indipendent repository with kde3 to use along official kde4
2) switch to Gnome
I will not use at this stage kde4 as my unique WM because is really complicated to use and static (plasmoids, kickoff, launchbar), yet not configurable as I wish... btw now in Hardy I'm using both without problem, I must say that qt4 are powerful and the performance are really good, but the daily use is really complicated and full of inutilities (at least for me)...

[Rog131]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

dentaku65

I really don't understand why the Kubuntu team did not make this choice....

Earlier in this topic claydoh told that:

If more people came to kubuntu meetings to express their thoughts and concerns, and maybe expressed an interest in helping maintain KDE3, maybe it would be around a little longer. But as Kubuntu devs are a very small group there just isn't enough manpower to support it past hardy.

So > Kubuntu Community

The Kubuntu community is open to anybody looking to get involved with all aspects in the creation and management of the Kubuntu operating system. The Kubuntu community is comprised of many people with varying skill sets, from brand new users to highly experienced developers...

Note that

Decisions for the K/X/ubuntu 9.04 Jaunty Jackalope are made now, not a month before the final release day

> Kubuntu Meeting Minutes > Kubuntu/Meetings/Minutes/2008-09-11

Jaunty Goals

We discussed possible goals for Jaunty including

* KDE 4.2
* Improving system-config-printer
* Improving package management (maybe even with packagekit)
* Filesharing (hardy spec deferred)
* K-Menu alternatives (raptor, lancelot...)
* codec install
* include KOffice 2
* kcontrol apps integration
* support MID?

[dentaku65]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

Note that

Decisions for the K/X/ubuntu 9.04 Jaunty Jackalope are made now, not a month before the final release day

> Kubuntu Meeting Minutes > Kubuntu/Meetings/Minutes/2008-09-11

Jaunty Goals

We discussed possible goals for Jaunty including

* KDE 4.2
* Improving system-config-printer
* Improving package management (maybe even with packagekit)
* Filesharing (hardy spec deferred)
* K-Menu alternatives (raptor, lancelot...)
* codec install
* include KOffice 2
* kcontrol apps integration
* support MID?

...and so what?
This should stop to tell to the team or other users that some decisions do not fit correctly with some users?
I ask this not for flame, but to understand. The points listed by Troberg are quite vital and reflect my own needs too. The tread is: "howto use kde3 in intrepid?", many visited this tread and I suspect that there is some reasons for this. I said that now in Hardy I use both and I simply said that in Intrepid I would like to do the same, if I post in a wrong manner my questions here I excuse all now.
I understand well that the team cannot manage this "double" kde implementation for the next release, but maybe someone can, I'm not so skilled to do this by myself and so, here I'm to post...

[Troberg]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

Just to clarify my earlier post:

I'm not against progress and I thing that KDE4 is a great step in the right direction, but I also feel that it's not yet stable enough or ready enough to put all the weight on the KDE4 leg.

I don't argue against the actions or the direction, I argue against the timing.

For people running cutting edge desktop machines or just playing around, KDE4 is good enough. For people who needs to rely on it to work as a solid tool in their daily work, it's not. There are people who need it to work to, quite literally, put food on the table.

Decisions for the K/X/ubuntu 9.04 Jaunty Jackalope are made now, not a month before the final release day

So, bring up the question of bringing KDE3 back in in Jaunty, and we'll have to rely on a third part repo until then. Not perfect, but at least it's not a total disaster, especially if the route I suggested of adopting a third party repo as official is taken.

[sjhstorm]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

[quote=Troberg ]

For people running cutting edge desktop machines or just playing around, KDE4 is good enough. For people who needs to rely on it to work as a solid tool in their daily work, it's not. There are people who need it to work to, quite literally, put food on the table.


I agree fully with you, some one that has to rely on a system for day to day work needs a fully stable release. I am presuming those people have that at present either with Hardy or earlier releases, if that is the case then can't they stay with it. Hardy still gets regular updates.

It's for this reason that at my workplace I use XP and not Vista (and Vista has been out quite some time now), but at home I use Vista (I like playing games) and Kubuntu. As KDE 4 is here to stay we need a distro that is going to push it forward as fast as possible, and I would like it to be Kubuntu.

[madscientist159]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

I will note that since the Ubuntu forums thread has been locked, any bugs with my repository should be noted here. If I have enough people using it, I might set up a true bug tracking system instead...

The amd64 packages have been up for a few days now. Is anyone using this and how is it behaving for you if you are?

The more people testing my build, the more bugs I can squash before the final release of Intrepid. So far I am amazed at how well KDE3 is handling KDE4 apps with just the minimum KDE4 runtime installed--I can barely tell the difference between KDE3, KDE4, GTK and Gnome apps from a UI perspective.

but for me plasmoids like are now are a waste of time of functionality

I think that remain with Hardy is not an option, because all other stuff beside kde is updated and (I would) like to use it.

...
* Equal or better than KDE3 feature wise. I will not step down, because, being a power user, I know that that one missing feature will probably be the one I really need.
...
Also, consider the newbies. I've tried to get my sister to try Kubuntu (Hardy/KDE4), but some trouble in KDE4 because it wasn't quite ready got her annoyed and she ended up with Windows XP instead.

Frankly, we can't afford one or two versions of Kubuntu that feels experimental. We must provide a stable and proven platform, at least as an alternative.

Cutting edge is fine, but sometimes things just need to keep working, no matter what. KDE4 will be great, but currently, it's still trying to walk.

I agree 100%! 8)

[of_darkness]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

I will note that since the Ubuntu forums thread has been locked, any bugs with my repository should be noted here. If I have enough people using it, I might set up a true bug tracking system instead...

The amd64 packages have been up for a few days now. Is anyone using this and how is it behaving for you if you are?



The more people testing my build, the more bugs I can squash before the final release of Intrepid. So far I am amazed at how well KDE3 is handling KDE4 apps with just the minimum KDE4 runtime installed--I can barely tell the difference between KDE3, KDE4, GTK and Gnome apps from a UI perspective.

but for me plasmoids like are now are a waste of time of functionality

I think that remain with Hardy is not an option, because all other stuff beside kde is updated and (I would) like to use it.

...
* Equal or better than KDE3 feature wise. I will not step down, because, being a power user, I know that that one missing feature will probably be the one I really need.
...
Also, consider the newbies. I've tried to get my sister to try Kubuntu (Hardy/KDE4), but some trouble in KDE4 because it wasn't quite ready got her annoyed and she ended up with Windows XP instead.

Frankly, we can't afford one or two versions of Kubuntu that feels experimental. We must provide a stable and proven platform, at least as an alternative.

Cutting edge is fine, but sometimes things just need to keep working, no matter what. KDE4 will be great, but currently, it's still trying to walk.

I agree 100%! 8)

I have upgraded my pinned hardy kde3 packages to your repo version and after the kwin update that i got now all seam to work fine but have not tested all yeat.. but if i get any bad behaviur of any packge thats in your repo that isent a user misshandeling issue i vill report back here

[claydoh]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

I'm not adverse when it comes to new stuff, and I will try KDE4 on some machines. However, there are machines where a product under such heavy development and in such an early phase in its life cycle will simply not be possible.

Stick with hardy for these

Sticking with Hardy is not an option, as I want to remain updated in other areas.

Stick with Hardy +backports for this

The efforts of madscientist159 are nice and commandable, but something "more official" would be needed for important machines.

Hardy +backports

[Troberg]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

Will it be possible to upgrade directly from Hardy to Jaunty (or what comes efter Jaunty if I need to skip another release)?

[claydoh]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

Of that I am not sure yet. usually in Ubuntu only LTS to LTS has had this without doing the 'stepping-stone' upgrade process. I'll ask around

[dentaku65]

Re: howto use kde3 in intrepid?

Hardy +backports

afaik backports do not carry new kernels branch or xorg, but just some applications and cutting edge of WMs; for the kernel I meant that the latest backport kernel on hardy will be no ever the same level as the last official kernel of Intrepid.

So, remain in Hardy is not an option, to me at least.