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    KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

    I decided to try out KDE4 once again since I was disappointed in the previous versions. This time it was Ver 4.1 - Some nice improvements but after 1 week, some mixed feelings. I list my concerns, and issues I've discovered below. This was a fresh KDE4 install, no upgrade!

    1. KDE4 install should include Plasmoids and the extra gear stuff.
    I spent hours researching KDE4 before diving in. Some guides to install and hype about plasma is what I found. Nothing explains or informs anyone about what plasmoids are, how you enable them or that you have to install extra packages in order to get them to work. In fact many forum postings are about just that. - How do I get the xxxx Widget to work? These should be included by default in the KDE4 package!

    2. Same old problems of packages required in Ubuntu.
    Why must all the other packages be included in a KDE4 install like Vocabulary trainer, Graphics and multimedia utils that should be scraped? I also don't use KMail yet try and remove any of these garbage disk wasters and you are forced to remove the Kubuntu4 desktop. Break the packages up to allow more granular install options. I use a best of breed approach in that I run Firefox yet the option to set it as a default app doesn't stick, konqueror still opens. I can't remove Kmail or I lose the interface because I use Evolution. It has a backup capability and everything is stored in 1 place unlike Kmail that has no backup capability, drops data in multiple locations and is a general pain for backup efforts. I don't use that archaic IRC client, Kvkbd, knotes, etc yet try and remove stuff like this individually, you can't. Break the packages apart so one may tailor an install to hteir liking please?

    NOW TO THE ISSUES I'VE FOUND

    --- KDE4 System performance and utilization is terrible.
    In KDE3 I can run MythTV, Evolution, Firefox, Yakuake, Gimp and loads other stuff and system utilization is less than 20%. In KDE4, with nothing running and only MythTV open, XORG is pegged at 100% system utilization. What's up with that? Same Video driver......

    --- Weird.... With the Analog Clock widget on the desktop, startup Open Office (any app). Watch the clock. The graphic scambles and changes with every second tick.

    --- Put more than a few Widgets on the desktop and open a Konsole or Yakuake, then open Firefox and switch back to Konsole or Yakuake, the screen goes white and the desktop locks up requiring you to restart the xserver.

    --- If you ever have to restart xserver, your desktop is completely scrambled upon login requiring you to reset your entire desktop up all over again, even with the Widgets locked.

    --- Scroll through the menu bar (Application Launcher), the graphics scramble and distort for a second but return. Rendering problem?

    --- Sound is HORRIBLE!!!! It's faint, muffled and lacks the mixer controls that KDE3 discovered and provided in order to fine tune your sound. Half the mixer options are not present. Also, which sound backend is KDE4 using? ALSA, ARTS or PulseAudio? Geez, just when things get going good, we shoot ourselves in the foot and rip it all out and start over. Once step forward.... 10 steps back?....

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    I echo the many other issues many have already voiced. I understand both sides however, the stability issues and incorrect reports of system utilization and performance of KDE4 over all others is incorrect. KDE4 IS A RESOURCE HOG, as much as Microcraps latest. The lack of required basic features over eyecandy is alarming. It's completely opposite of everything that Open Source and Linux has stood for and strived to achieve.

    I recommend that anyone looking to adopt the KDE4 interface be well prepared and throughly research it first BEFORE upgrading. You mileage will vary of course. My concern is with Intrepid. I hope we are not locked into KDE4 or if that happens, it may be time to look around at another distro.

    KDE4 is not ready for prime time and with developers insistence that it is and a refusal to acknowledge these issues is disappointing. BEFORE the eyecandy, fix the flaws, restore the basic customization features, put the polish back into the interface and THEN..... add the eyecandy. You might find user acceptance and less postings with that approach.



    #2
    Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

    While even the KDE developers might agree 4.1 is not a finished work I think it is a lot better than what you describe.
    The development model is a bit unusual, putting in all the shine at the expense of stability but there has been an unusual amount of progress in the last months, probably because people that have tasted a new feature are encouraged to push for fine tuning.
    For me it's clear this is a well managed project, the great plan has been set up and now they are working on filling in the details, in the end this will be better than collecting a bunch of separate applications and then trying to write a wrapper to integrate them.

    I can't see it is, in a significant way, more resource hungry than version 3.5.9.

    There are some elements in the default install that not everyone uses but who cares, it's not like Windows where every daemon (application) is run at start-up regardless whether it's needed.
    And that means they only fill some disk space, not memory or CPU cycles.

    Yes Kmail is a disaster, especially in the light of how many years it has been 'in development'.

    Sound works fine on my laptop, Kmixer is there.

    Because I've got KDE4 installed alongside KDE3.5.9 I can sample the progress without giving up on the stability and maturity of 3.5.9.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

      I have to agree with the OP. Performance is terrible for a machine of my caliber. I have a dual core AMD 4400 with 2gigs of ram and a nvidia 8800 gtx( OR whatever the hell its called these days) and KDE 4 is almost 10x's slower than KDE3 (Same install base).

      KDE4's desktop enhancement (Basically compiz) is a TOTAL mess. KDE3 with compiz is 100% more stable a compatible with other opengl apps. Games will run well on KDE3 with compiz; with KDE4, just forget it.

      Plasmoids HAHA, Don't even try. Installing just ONE pegs one CPU to 100% for the duration of the session.

      Desktop Icons... Creating new application launchers... customizing task bar... compressing multiple files from Dolphin... Forget it... Mine as well use Gnome... It makes as much since...

      I remember going from KDE 1 to KDE2 and to KDE3 and it was an absolute pleasure. Even the betas were rock solid. KDE4 is reminiscent of Vista... Sad but true...

      Better luck next time KDE dev team... Better luck next time (Maybe atleast someone can fork it and do something with it. There are some great ideas; just need the brains to make it happen).

      Nuff said... Now on to a working desktop

      Comment


        #4
        Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

        I agree that the project does seem to be a mess and I think it could well be very damaging to kde. kde has really been falling behind gnome in popularity and kde4 is just going to hasten that trend.

        I have installed 4 and tried it a few times but have gone back to 3. 4 is obviously software in development and should never have been released as a final version. The fact that is was just indicates that the whole project is being run in the old style of 'hobby' oss/linux software, ie it is a geek-toy, ok if you enjoy fiddling with buggy software in your spare time but not suitable for users who just want to use the software to do things. kde 4 seems to have been too ambitious and tried to do too much at once.

        I went with kubuntu rather than ubuntu because I prefered kde apps in most cases but I am thinking now that come the next release (8.10) I may follow the herd and swap to gnome and just install the kde apps that are important. Gnome seems to have a more professional approach to development than kde.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

          Two comments:

          1. KDE 4.1 on Intrepid today is better than it was two weeks ago on Hardy Heron -- I think that is because there are no 3.5.9 pieces hanging around causing confusion. I cannot detect any speed difference at all.

          2. To understand what's going on with KDE, you kind of need to understand the theory behind the new direction:

          http://www.northdavisroad.net/2008/0...g-the-desktop/

          Comment


            #6
            Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

            I read that article but still cannot see what exactly makes kde4 radically different to any other 'desktop'. There are a few slightly different ideas perhaps but as a user I don't see what this great shift in concept is Also the article confirms the buggyness of it which has to be the main criticism. It is alpha or at best beta software and should still be released as such.

            It is interesting that in the article he says that kubuntu is a disaster and other distros are better. I just don't want to invest much more time in Linux tbh but if I had more time and wanted to stick with kde I think I would swap to one of the more kde focused distros. I just don't have the time or interest anymore to learn a new distro and its quirks.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?


              Yes, there are still some problems with widgets and icons but KDE is getting better with every update. Why are so many people so bloody negative?

              Comment


                #8
                Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

                Originally posted by tomp01

                Why are so many people so bloody negative?
                "Change" is the answer -- and it is quite different.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

                  Originally posted by tomp01

                  Yes, there are still some problems with widgets and icons but KDE is getting better with every update. Why are so many people so bloody negative?
                  Because once you release for public consumption, things should work - as is out of box. They DON'T in KDE4.x and to keep saying "...KDE is getting better with every update." is unacceptable and is identical to how windows software works.

                  Also people aren't reading the postings either. System loads..... look at top on your system. My system does seem okay in performance but geez does KDE4 have to consume 100% of a dual core 64bit system? talk about a melt down....

                  Also everyone overlooks the varying installs documented as well. There's a mix of fresh installs, running parallel to gnome or kde3 and everyone's having identical issues but nobody's paying attention to the details. They wouldn't be saying try a fresh install or try with KDE3 if they read.

                  dible - Who cares about Intrepid right now? We are concerned with the present. This is another peeve I have with distros and KDE. It's always - Try the beta or other version, it's better over there but once there, you get the usual "use at your own risk" responses. Why does nothing work now as advertised but it's always going to be fixed in the next release? Why do you think so many people are fed up with Microscrewed-U products.

                  To Quote Teunis - "While even the KDE developers might agree 4.1 is not a finished work..." Then it shouldn't have been released. - PERIOD!!!!!

                  This recent trend Linux overall has on eyecandy needs to come to a stop. Quite trying to follow another product and work on more functionality and compatibility than anything else. Distro's should focus on what it's going to take to gain the market share in the workplace. Industry applications for Accounting, a Word Processing Suite comparable to MS Office, Analytical Suites, Construction Industry tools etc are pretty much non-existent in Linux. No Open Office isn't close - Word Perfect maybe, unfortunately the Linux community did a good job of pissing off Corel so they stopped their efforts to port the app to Linux.

                  How many sound engines do we need? Let's See.... Arts, Alsa, PulseAudio.... Geez foks, what was wrong with what we had? If theres to be a move, then make it so but make it stable BEFORE you release instead of confusing everyone with half a dozen to pick from and let a distro force one on you with no compatibility features available while creating sound problems.

                  THIS is the crap (yes crap) that's holding Linux back.
                  THIS is the garbage that continues to give us a black eye
                  THIS is the banana peel that we keep slipping up on.

                  As someone mentioned.... I look for KDE to lose out because of events and see more distros going to the Gnome interface in the next release cycle because of it. As for those distros that will try and force a KDE4 only interface on next release? I shudder to think at the effects.


                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

                    [quote=Old_Salt ]
                    Originally posted by tomp01



                    As someone mentioned.... I look for KDE to lose out because of events and see more distros going to the Gnome interface in the next release cycle because of it. As for those distros that will try and force a KDE4 only interface on next release? I shudder to think at the effects.
                    I think that you are being overly pessimistic and also have a short memory, KDE 3.5.x wasn't very stable until at least 3.5.8 and wasn't rock solid until 3.5.9.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

                      Originally posted by Old_Salt

                      Because once you release for public consumption, things should work - as is out of box. They DON'T in KDE4.x and to keep saying "...KDE is getting better with every update." is unacceptable and is identical to how windows software works.
                      This is not my experience with linux at all. Perhaps things should work perfectly out of the box, but that is certainly not the norm. Pretty much every single program out there has its bugs and issues that are being worked through. But if you were to trace quality over time I think most aspects of linux are consistently improving.

                      Also, kde and kubuntu have much faster update and release cycles than windows. It is not "identical" in any respect. If my program is buggy in kde, I may have to wait a few weeks or more for it to improve, whereas with windows it may be years.

                      As for system loads....Your 100% cpu usage is not typical. I'm sorry it's so bad for you. I run conky which allows me to see my cpu load all the time and it is currently at 2-3% as I type this, and it never seems sluggish or maxed out as you have described. If it were like that for everyone then of course more people would be upset.

                      I also think you're hearing an odd message if you think kde4 is about eye candy. Making it easier to customize your desktop and programs is not a bad thing...but it's hardly the main point of kde4.

                      I'm always surprised when people get so upset about kde4. If it's really so terrible there is absolutely nothing keeping you from enjoying kde3. You can enjoy your kde3 for another year or so and then come back and see if kde4 has made any progress to your liking. Personally I think you've had a bad experience, but it doesn't match my experience at all. I love kde4. It's very fun, bugs and all.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

                        Well said (or written) Nate!

                        It's as simple as this: GNU/Linux is a community. Microsoft is a vendor. Big difference!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

                          Hello,

                          I am new to kubunu (installed kubuntu one week ago) but not so new to linux.
                          Is there a detailed instructions "how to upgrade KDE 4.1 guide" in forum or wiki??

                          I am at work dont remember version of KDE i am using but its the default comes with Hardy (Kde 3,95)

                          Regards
                          Attila
                          Kubuntu User # 26056<br />Gigabyte GA-MA770-UD3 AMD Athlon II X2 250 4Gb Ram 1x40Gb SSd Hdd +500gb Home&nbsp; Nvidia Gf8500Gt <br />AcerAspireOne A150

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

                            I'd be cautious about that -- there have been a lot of posts like this one lately:

                            http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/inde...opic=3096774.0

                            :P

                            If you have a spare 10GB partition, you might want to install Intrepid Ibex Alpha 4, which comes only with KDE 4.1, and play with it that way. Adept Manager doesn't work yet, and there are some other minor bugs, but it hangs together reasonably well on my system. Adding KDE 4.1 to a system built with 3.5.9 seems to cause more misery than it's worth for a lot of folks.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: KDE 4.1 Woes and Oops?

                              I have to dig the info up, but I am hearing a lot of people having serious problems with some nvidia cards/drivers and kde4. I never saw any serious issues using kde4 in Hardy with a GF FX5200 (64mb), though it didn't like a fully blinged-out kwin effects setup. That system died recently, and I am now running Intrepid using a 5+ year-old P4-M 2.0 laptop with 1gb ram and radeon mobility 7500 (32mb) video which runs kwin effects much better than nvidia, and with no other hardware issues at either. (though the "It Works For Me" mantra does nothing to help those for whom "It Doesn't")

                              Now to the OP's main issues:

                              1) As for plasmoids, there will be more. There currently are some extra widgets available in Intrepid, and I believe kdeplasma-addons may provide extra ones for Hardy. Some in Intrepid have to be rebuilt as kwin's libraries have been updated , so a few of them won't work until they are. It mostly boils down to the very small number of volunteer effort packaging these extra things. Eventually, you actually will be able to download widgets from the Add Widgets applet.

                              2) The cruft issue is solely based on how you installed kde4, or more accurately, which meta-package was used to install it. Following the instructions given to install KDE4.1 in Hardy, installing the package kubuntu-kde4-desktop will install a moderate amount of packages for a complete, well rounded desktop. My Hardy system is suffering from a dead motherboard, but I don't remember any cruft more than a normal kde3 install (though i am sure there are a few things) An intrepid install definitely does not have any cruft as it has been more finely tuned in its package selection for its kubuntu-desktop metapackage.

                              As to packlage selection, and kubuntu-kde4-desktop, please remember that it is a meta-package and is perfectly safe to remove. It simply provides a group of packages to be installed and contains no applications in and of itself, so if you want to remove , say, kmail, it will also cause kubuntu-kde4-desktop to be removed. But this will not break your system. You can uninstall quite a bit if you wish with no harm.

                              Finally, a few points I think need to be made.

                              One: KDE4 in Hardy is pretty much in existence solely as a convenience for the Kubuntu community as well as giving a safe way to check out parts of KDE4, and I think that its failings and shortcomings need to be taken in this context,. If you want to see a real KDE4, you really should at some point check out Intrepid Ibex, imnsho.

                              Two: As Kubuntu is specifically a single-cd, KDE/QT-only distro, and one that strives to provide a well-rounded set of applications and a simple install process, don't expect to find any non-'native' apps such as firefox in a default install. Once Koffice2 becomes stable, you may even see it replace OpenOffice. And you probably won't see a more complicated, and complex (and bloated) installer with a more fine-tuned package selection dialogs. There are ways to do a minimal install of any desktop environment in *buntu. Install kde4-core instead of kubuntu-kde4-desktop for example.

                              Three: Should kde4 have been released? Of course I am going to say yes. If we used these criteria, we'd still be running KDE2 for crying out loud
                              many of the same gripes and nay-saying went on back during the kde2-kde3 transition (what is a kio-slave, what does it do? Why can't I configure foo) The only difference was there were fewer kde/linux users out there back then, as well as fewer forums and blogs to rant on And look how wonderful KDE3.5.9 has become! Same thing will happen with 4.

                              As an open-source, community-driven affair, we as users need to [b/]use[/b] the things at some point so it can be learned, guided, fixed and tweaked. We are not [i]end[i]-users, it doesn't stop at our keyboards and monitors. Even our disagreements are good, expected, and actually necessary. Bug reporting, fixing, lending a hand to newbies, blogging, and whatnot all contribute back to the Circle.



                              [Was that rambling and disjointed enough for everyone?]

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