Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

[manchicken]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

Guys, here is the experiment. In Adept:

• 1. Select "kdm" for removal.
• 2. No pop-up, nothing, and in the status line it reads "remove 2" (go find this).
• 3. Do "Preview Changes " (the user doesn't necessarily do this).
• 4. "kubuntu-desktop" is listed for removal. Again, the user should need to do that this will totally screw her/his installation. This is a meta-package that include hundreds if not thousdands of packages.
  

I think this is pretty conclusive ...

Actually, you're a bit wrong in your assumption here. Removing 'kubuntu-desktop' does not remove the dozens (yes, only dozens) of programs that make up kubuntu, KDE, or anything else. This is a common misconception because staring the removal of kubuntu-desktop in the face it can be kinda scary. It doesn't destabilize your system (other than removing kdm) or nix KDE, it just removes the meta-package. If you wanted to install the meta-package again, all it would do is add kdm back onto your system.

[manchicken]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu? My god!!!

I selected libncurses to remove, click Apply and Kubuntu removed ALL MY SYSTEM!!!!

Any explanation?

If you remove a package, it will remove that package and all packages that depend on that package. Since quite a bit depends on libncurses and ALSA, this will result in removing quite a few packages. If I were you, I'd try to better understand and pay attention to packages before trying to remove them.

[dibl]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

I beg to disagree

... We should always give clear messages to the users as to what's gonna happen in their systems, IMHO.

OK, we can respectfully disagree -- this is a matter of taste, IMHO, and certainly depends heavily upon your assumption about the user's experience/proficiency/endowment of common sense, etc.

One benefit of getting away from Windows, to me, was losing those obnoxious and insulting and time-wasting "warning messages", which had to be navigated while trying to do what I intended to do, i.e.:

"Fragillator will now be removed, Mr. Dumba$$ -- is that what you intended when you clicked the 'Remove Fragillator' button, or perhaps did your finger slip while typing Aunt Mary's newsletter?"

[lmilano]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

Actually, you're a bit wrong in your assumption here. Removing 'kubuntu-desktop' does not remove the dozens (yes, only dozens) of programs that make up kubuntu, KDE, or anything else. This is a common misconception because staring the removal of kubuntu-desktop in the face it can be kinda scary. It doesn't destabilize your system (other than removing kdm) or nix KDE, it just removes the meta-package. If you wanted to install the meta-package again, all it would do is add kdm back onto your system.

You are so right, I'll correct my post in Launchpad. Thank you!

[boinker]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

Sorry guys, but I'm not agree with most of your posts :-(

I don't think that I must suppose removing alsa or ncurses will cause firefox removal.

I don't think that I must suppose removing alsa or ncurses will cause openoffice removal.

I don't think that I must suppose removing alsa or ncurses will cause krecipes removal.

I don't think that I must suppose removing alsa or ncurses will cause unrar removal.

And finally, I don't think that I must suppose removing alsa or ncurses will cause all my kernel images removal.

It's supposed I must click "preview"? Maybe, I think not.

It's supposed I must know that removing alsa, krecipes will be deleted? What? Absolutely not.

It's supposed I must know that removing ncurses, kernel images will be deleted? Absolutely not.

And the real thing: Ubuntu is supposed to be easy for new Linux users; IMHO a system that brokes because of removing a sound or a text user interfaces library (it's supposed not an essential package) is not an easy system.

Regards,

[juantovarm]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

Ok, maybe my adept manager is different, it has a button where that says "DISPLAY CHANGES" Before i unisntall anything, i hit it and see if i am going to brak anything too serious or that i want running. If i kill kdm, waht desktop manager am i going to have? I'd have to reinstall it or install gdm. People should read and study and if they still do not understand, ask, that's why these forums exist and why irc channels exist as well. People rely too much on their memory, why not simply just write down what you are doing and if something goes wrong, you know what to undo. It's not so complicated...a pencil and a piece of paper...yes, they still do exist! I wonder why people don't mess around with their cars and expect them to work flawlessly after changing the configuration of their engines by themselves without even knowing what a sparkplug is...

READ and STUDY!!!!!!!

Juan

[boinker]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

Ok, maybe my adept manager is different, it has a button where that says "DISPLAY CHANGES" Before i unisntall anything, i hit it and see if i am going to brak anything too serious or that i want running. If i kill kdm, waht desktop manager am i going to have? I'd have to reinstall it or install gdm.

Well, it's supposed if I haven't sound card, can't I remove alsa package or my essential packages will be erased? ;-)

Shall I suppose that krecipes was related to alsa? Uh...

People should read and study and if they still do not understand, ask, that's why these forums exist and why irc channels exist as well. People rely too much on their memory, why not simply just write down what you are doing and if something goes wrong, you know what to undo. It's not so complicated...a pencil and a piece of paper...yes, they still do exist! Wink I wonder why people don't mess around with their cars and expect them to work flawlessly after changing the configuration of their engines by themselves without even knowing what a sparkplug is.

Well. I think if I change my seats car, car still working, isn't it? If I change my MP3 because I don't want sound, car still working, isn't it?

Can I go to an expert to change my MP3? I'll go to an expert if I want my sound work fine, but not to change it, really?

Regards,

[Fintan]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

I am not sure "bug" is the best word to describe this though, I think it's a poor user interface, and I understand this is a subjective manner. Anyway, I think this should be improved if we want to fix bug# 1 ;-) We should never assume the user cares about front-end, back-end, packaging system, essential packages et al. We should always give clear messages to the users as to what's gonna happen in their systems, IMHO.

I understand you frustrations very well. The first time I uninstalled explorer from windows I had a very similar situation. The only difference was there was nobody online to help me. IMHO there is plenty of valid information on this and other related forums not to speak of howto's galore for any one who is interested. Oh yes, of course there is this search function or that very obscure thing called google.

[lmilano]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

I understand you frustrations very well. The first time I uninstalled explorer from windows I had a very similar situation. The only difference was there was nobody online to help me.

Yes. It's all about the community. I actually switched from Mandriva (an excellent distro) because of the much larger (K)Ubuntu community. As for the frustration, pls don't get me wrong. I know my way around. I started with Slackware in '95 ... you get the picture. I just want this distro to be as easy to use as possible, for everyone ...

Cheers!

[marshallbanana]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

I advise you to use synaptic instead of Adept, because Synaptic tells you which packages it's going to remove and asks you whether you are sure.

Adept will also tell you if you ask it. After marking things to install/removal just click on the button 'Preview Changes' and you will see a list of all packages being installed/removed.

Also in all fairness, why would any 'newbie' be removing packages? Especially ones like alsa that aren't just some app. While I agree that adept should tell you without being asked I hardly think this can be described as a problem for newbies.

[SheeEttin]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

Originally wrote this post before I realized there were two more pages, but I guess it's still applicable:

If a package depends on something that you remove, the higher package will be removed too. It has to be, because without it, you create a broken state. It's like trying to run a car without an engine. "sudo apt-get install car" will pull down engine, chassis, etc., and removing any one of those will cause a broken state, i.e. no car.
(And I'll add this to the post unrar depends on ncurses because it uses it for its interface. Without ncurses, it's not going to work, so why create a broken package? The user should check what they're removing. If you don't bother to see what you're really doing, the computer's going to go ahead and do it, even if it means (to you) a broken computer.
Hey, you told it to, it just did what you said.

[mchuskie]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

$ apt-cache showpkg krecipes
Package: krecipes
Versions:
1.0~beta1-1 (/var/lib/apt/lists/gb.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_feisty_universe_binary-i386_Packages)
 Description Language:
         File: /var/lib/apt/lists/gb.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_feisty_universe_binary-i386_Packages
         MD5: 461bc7246ef888642d1be8b5ff1f5039


Reverse Depends:
 krecipes-doc,krecipes 1.0~beta1-1
 kde-extras,krecipes
Dependencies:
1.0~beta1-1 - krecipes-data (5 1.0~beta1-1) kdelibs4c2a (2 4:3.5.3-1) libacl1 (2 2.2.11-1) libart-2.0-2 (2 2.3.16) 
libattr1 (2 2.4.4-1) libaudio2 (0 (null)) libc6 (2 2.4-1) libfontconfig1 (2 2.3.0) libfreetype6 (2 2.2) libgcc1 (2 1:4.1.1-12)
 libice6 (0 (null)) libidn11 (2 0.5.18) libjpeg62 (0 (null)) libpcre3 (2 4.5) libpng12-0 (2 1.2.8rel) libqt3-mt (2 3:3.3.6) 
libsm6 (0 (null)) libsqlite3-0 (2 3.3.5) libstdc++6 (2 4.1.1-12) libx11-6 (0 (null)) libxcursor1 (4 1.1.2) libxext6 (0 (null)) 
libxft2 (4 2.1.1) libxi6 (0 (null)) libxinerama1 (0 (null)) libxrandr2 (0 (null)) libxrender1 (0 (null)) libxt6 (0 (null)) zlib1g (2 1:1.2.1) 
libqt3-mt-mysql (16 (null)) libqt3-mt-psql (0 (null)) krecipes-doc (5 1.0~beta1-1)
Provides:
1.0~beta1-1 -
Reverse Provides:

Those are the packages that krecipes depends on directly. Remove any of those and krecipes will be removed as it will no longer be able to work.

A lot of packages have dependencies on ncurses so of course removing it is going to do damage to your system. Removing ALSA did not cause this chain reaction. I will say that again: it is removing the widely-used ncurses library that caused other packages to be removed.

Well. I think if I change my seats car, car still working, isn't it? If I change my MP3 because I don't want sound, car still working, isn't it?

Remove your steering wheel and car not working, is it? Remove your gearbox, car not working, is it?

Out of interest, why were you trying to remove it?

[MoonRise]

Re: Incredible, what happens with Kubuntu?

Kubuntu is the closest I have seen to a distro that a Windozer can pick up and use out-of-the-box. Then again, Windows isn't perfect either and it has given me far more grief than Kubuntu to get running just right.

[Philosophical Digression]

You know, depending on your age when you began working with computers, some of us spent 20+ learning DOS and Windows. However, upon installing Kubuntu, we seem to expect (a) that what we "KNOW" from our Windows experience will be useful (it's NOT ...), and (b) to master the new OS in a week or two. These are CRAZY EXPECTATIONS!!!

Linux is DIFFERENT -- WRITE THAT DOWN AND MEMORIZE IT!

[/Philosophical Digression]

Agreed 100% - at least from my perspective and age