Kubuntu and its browsers

[technogran]

As a fairly new user of all things Kubuntu and Linux, can I ask a simple question?? Why oh why is it such a pain to get either Konqueror (which I would love to use by the way) or even Firefox to display sites or video straight out of the box? Most websites now contain some form of flash media or require some sort of medial player, yet getting these to work in either browser is a real pain, and despite numerous attempts to get Konqueror to display any flash content, I have all but given up. Why can't both browsers have all plugins already installed? Why does the user have to go through so much in this day and age in order to view ALL websites?
You have to get the ordinary user such as myself to come on board Linux if you want it 'mainstream' or is it the intention to keep it always for an elite group of users? I don't want to have to type in this or type in that in order to get things to work! It's no wonder that users such as myself then have to revert back to Microsoft!! I genuinely want to use Linux and especially Kubuntu its my favourite, but things such as this just put me off. I want things to work 'straight out of the box' and I have really got fed up of trying to get flash installed in Konqueror which is a shame.

Sorry for the rant but this is how I feel!

[n00b]

Re: Kubuntu and its browsers

I'm also very new, so unfortunatly I can't help you install the plugins yet. I just want to state that a out-of-the-box installation of XP also comes with a browser WITHOUT flash-plugin or media-player. You have to install this when the browser asks you to do that. Firefox (at least the windows version) does the very same thing, it prompts you if you need a plugin you don't have.

[Fenyx]

Re: Kubuntu and its browsers

1. If you visit a site in Konqueror that has Flash content, it will popup a notification asking if you want to install Flash. Just follow the instructions and it will install Flash automatically. I don't know if it's the same for Firefox. But n00b is correct, even Firefox or Internet Explorer on Windows XP doesn't have Flash installed by default.

You can also just go to Add/Remove Programs , search for Flash or Macromedia Flash, and install it. Simple as that. No need to hunt down the program or manually download the installer from Adobe.

2. Ubuntu has a special commitment to the philosophy and principles of Free and Open Source Software. One of this is the use free/open file and media formats. Flash is a proprietary format/software (even though it is quite famous). Although it's free in terms of money (you don't have to pay for it), it's not free in terms of freedom (to modify and redistribute), making it contrary to the spirit of FOSS. That is why the package for Flash (called flashplugin-nonfree) cannot be included in the main packages, that is, packages that are officially supported by Ubuntu (Ubuntu can't touch Flash in any way) or can be installed by default (because there might be legal/licensing issues with distributing a system with Flash installed by default).

So the bottom line is, while Ubuntu indeed tries to be a complete desktop operating system, there are some things that it just can't do, either because they are legally unable to do so, or because they go against the principles of Free and Open Source Software, upon which all these wonderful software that make up Ubuntu is based on. At the same time, Ubuntu does recognize the need of users for these popular software and players, so they try to make it as effortless as possible to search for and install these packages, such as automated scripts (see item #1) or helper packages) like the kubuntu-restricted-extras that will install MP3, Flash, and Java support).

You can read this thread that is similar to your complaints: http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3085755

[technogran]

Re: Kubuntu and its browsers

Thanks for your replies and explanations! This makes things much clearer for me to understand. I do want to use Kubuntu, and look forward when everything just 'works' without the need for using the 'terminal etc in order to get things to either install properly or having to have a masters degree in programming !! I think of Kubuntu, Ubuntu et al as more aimed at the ordinary 'desktop' user like myself, unless there is another distro which would suit me better. I want to be able to use a Linux distro without all the complications if you understand me, I don't want to have to use any terminal to get things working! It all really depends I think on which way the Linux Distro developers want to go.
Do they want their ~Distro's to remain just for people who know how to program etc, or do they want them for the 'ordinary user like myself.

Anyway, thanks again for your answers

[Fenyx]

Re: Kubuntu and its browsers

Hmm... I can't seem to understand why you would think its necessary to use the terminal in order to get things to install properly, much less need to have programming knowledge. Although I would have to shamefully admit that SUSE is a winner in the "GUI administration tools" department, for the multimedia problems that you have, I don't see a reason to resort to the command line.

Let's do a quick analysis and comparison with Windows XP regarding some of the codecs and software that you need/want:

1. MP3 (and other media)
Sure, Kubuntu doesn't play MP3's by default, but neither can Windows play other codecs and wrappers, like OGG, Matroska (MKV), etc. Of course, MP3's are more famous. In Kubuntu, all you need to do to install support for MP3's is either to:

a. Try to play an MP3 in Amarok, which, in turn, will launch a simple script that will automatically install the needed package for you; or
b. Launch the software installer program, Add/Remove Programs, search for "mp3" and install that package in 2 clicks!

The added bonus is that this package for playing MP3s is the same package you need to play all other media! (except for Windows Media). Compare that to Windows where:

a. You need to install separate codecs to handle different media formats; and
b. Have to hunt for each codec individually.

2. Macromedia/Adobe Flash
Not even Firefox (on XP) or Internet Explorer has this installed by default. But the process of installing it is the same for Konqueror (can't speak for Firefox on Linux as I don't usually use it).

a. Go to a site that has Flash content, and a script will run, asking if you want to install Flash. This is the same on Windows as on Kubuntu; or
b. Download Flash and install it manually. On Windows you have to go to the Flash website and follow the instructions there. On Kubuntu, simply launch Add/Remove Programs, search for "flash" and install in 2 clicks.

3. Sun Java
The same situation and steps in Flash is true for Java. And as Java becomes more and more free (as in speech), there might come a time when we can see Java in the main repositories or even installed by default (although I'm not 100% sure about that).

But it doesn't stop here! Ubuntu is continually trying to make it easier and easier to install these things with less effort. Starting next release, Kubuntu 7.10, a single package, named kubuntu-restricted-extras (not sure what it will be called in Add/Remove Programs), will install all these things in one swoop (again, except for Windows Media).

So you see, it's not really that difficult, nor do you actually have to use the command line. Most experienced users, though, often give help to newbie users by giving command line instructions, not because it's the only way to do it, but because:
1. It's the most efficient way of giving instructions (5 point and click instructions vs. 1 line of command); and
2. It allows you to see error messages that can help determine any problem that comes up.

And don't be deceived. The command line is not a step back in time, as some operating system vendors would like you to think. True it may be a more geeky approach, one that many system administrators prefer. But think for a moment why these "power" users prefer to use the command line. It's because it gives them power. And wouldn't you want power over your computer, rather than just be a slave to what you see? Of course, typing in commands is not for everybody, nor is it for everyday. But knowing some tricks on ye old prompt can be very nifty. Besides, typing in commands like a wizard has never ceased to produce oooh's and aaah's from the less "fortunate".

[technogran]

Re: Kubuntu and its browsers

Again thanks for your replies. Okay, you seem very knowledgeable about Linux and the different distro's, so for someone like me (oldie/newbie) who doesn't want the hassle and wants everything to just work 'out of the box' which distro would you recommend? I have tried Ubuntu, Kubuntu, PClinux so which do you think is the easiest to use and set up for someone like me??

Thanks

TG

[Fintan]

Re: Kubuntu and its browsers

mint:
http://linuxmint.com/index.html
It is based on on ubuntu so shares the same backround. But has flash etc. ready for you. What you won't get is realplayer "out of the box" for the reasons already mentioned above. Go to the forum and find out how to do that without the command line. I know typing is a hassle but when I remember my windows days and reflect on this proceedure:
search for a application, music/movie format, download it, press exe. fill out countless forms, reboot, configure, reboot again, etc..

But as many have pointed out ist is not a prerequisite.

I don't really understand what the real problem is. No operating system works "out of the box" unless you buy a "box" with the system preinstalled and even then.....

Having said that I am sure you will want to install some software at some stage and ubuntu/mint/debian is the most efficient os for that.

Open system->adept and search for the application you want. If it is not there ask. That is what this forum is here for.

Either way their is no holy grail on this.
I hope that helps a bit

[Fenyx]

Re: Kubuntu and its browsers

Three distros that I know of that come with these things out of the box are Mandriva, PCLInuxOS (based on Mandriva), and SimplyMEPIS (based on Debian... again).

However, if you are already familiar with an Ubuntu/Kubuntu system, you need not go too far. There are distributions derived from Ubuntu that do have these things by default:

Linux Mint: http://linuxmint.com/
LinuxMCE: http://linuxmce.org/
and Medibuntu (not really a distro, but a repository): http://medibuntu.sos-sts.com/

I don't have any experience with any of these three so I can't really recommend any of them. I still believe that, apart from these "issues" with proprietary formats which indirectly raises peoples awareness of free/open alternatives, Kubuntu is still one of the best distros out there.

[goforthis]

Re: Kubuntu and its browsers

Avoid the typing copy paste that is what I do
I have been using some flavor of Linux for about 7 years now and I still don't
know all of the commands but I keep plugging along
Believe me it does get easier I keep a book with a lot of commands in it
I myself have found Kubuntu to be the easiest to use and get used to
command line is not the only way to do things but I feel it is sometimes the best
This is the nature of the animal
Plus these guys and gals here on this forum are a good bunch especially when you
need help (all you have to do is ask)

Good luck in your search for a better Linux Distro
Better yet stay and join the family the more the merrier

[mistrynitesh]

Re: Kubuntu and its browsers

I don't want to have to type in this or type in that in order to get things to work!

Read the following and be convinced that CLI is good for you

http://www.osnews.com/story.php/6282...terface/page1/