Double Kubuntu install

[Quaxo76]

Re: Double Kubuntu install

Here's the output to the "find /boot/grub/stage1" command:

(hd1,8)
(hd1,11)

Cheers
Cristian

[jankushka]

Re: Double Kubuntu install

The sda1 (/media/Volume) is a hd mounted in a removable tray that I use to move data between home and work. It is usually plugged in, it looks like I had forgotten plugging it at the time of my second post...

It is a P-ATA drive, containing nothing but data (no OSs). It has never created problem in either Windows or my old Kubuntu installation...

that's it, then...
this is the cause of the troubles.
this is no ordinary usb removable drive.
this is an ata drive, which gets on the same bus as the other drive(s) in your box, yeah?
so, i guess, depending on if/when you plug in this hdd, your device names/numbers get shifted.
i think this is it (and dr house was quite right again ).

Now, you say I should boot into the new install and "re-install grub from the new install"... How do I do that? Sorry but I'm really new to GRUB, and I don't want to start messing around until I know exactly what to do...

so...time to explain and time try to wrap up this issue...
- grub speaks its own language when it comes to naming devices
- it will name the first hdd in the system hd0, the second hd1, ...
- grub needs to know what its root directory is
- basically, grub's root directory in linux is the /boot directory
- it needs to know that, because that is where the actual software it needs to run is
- in /boot you have the linux kernel and the initrd
- in /boot/grub you have grub's software and the menu.lst file
- of course grub needs to know that in its own language (grub doesn't know of any os device names...obviously)
- and, in its language, it will be something like hdn,m
- n being the hdd number, m being the partition number
- in case of installation into the mbr, grub also needs to know in which drive's mbr it will have go
- normally it's hd0, 'cause that's the first drive (the one you can boot from)

now then...
- when you install grub in the mbr, you install it from somewhere.
- this from is some linux installation's /boot/grub directory
- and it will be this /boot/grub/menu.lst file that will be active and that you will see when you boot your box
- by having 2 distinct kubuntu installations and grub in the mbr, you'll have to manage your grub from either one or the other
- that is, you have to decide which one will be the main/active/master one and forget the other
- there are other ways of dealing with this, but...let's skip them for now, shall we?
- problem: when you install a new kernel (e.g., from the updater), grub update is run automatically
- this means one or the other /boot is made active in turns

Here's the output to the "find /boot/grub/stage1" command:

(hd1,8)
(hd1,11)

this means that, on your hd1 (which is really supposed to be hd0), you have 2 /boot/grub directories.
one is that of the old installation: /dev/sdb9.
the other is that of the new installation: /dev/sdb12.

you should now have a good understanding of what all this is about and what happened to your box.

for your info, installing grub into the mbr is easy:

sudo grub

when in grub:

root (hdn,m)
setup (hdn)
quit

where (hdn,m) should be (hd0,12), and (hdn) should be (hd0)

wrap up:
if i'm right (that is, if the cause of the shift is the plugging in of the external hdd),
the best, and simplest, thing to do is to:
a) unplug your external drive
b) boot the new installation and
if grub at last sees your internal drive as hd0 (check with the find command again)
then
reinstall grub off the new installation as per the above instructions
else
boot the kubuntu live cd and reinstall kubuntuinto partition 12

[Quaxo76]

Re: Double Kubuntu install

Hi jankushka,
Thanks for all the informations... It starts to make much more sense now. But there's one thing I still don't have clear: the removable disk is not actually external, but internal, because it's connected to the 80-pin IDE bus. And my other hard disks are both on SATA bus, so their naming should not change when I add/remove the data disk. And in my old installation, when I inserted/removed the data disk, nothing changed with namings. And, most important: when I installed both Kubuntus (the old and the new) the data drive was connected, so why did the drives get named differently?

I don't really need to manage grub from both systems, because my plan was that, after setting and updating the new Ubuntu, I would just delete the old one, as I don't need two installations but just one that is working fine.

I installed grub from the new installation, but of course it wasn't (hd0,12) but (hd1,11). Now I'll reboot with the new grub (hopefully) and see what happens after removing the data drive...

Cristian

[Quaxo76]

Re: Double Kubuntu install

More weirdness. I thought I had understood but it seems not.
After installing the new Kubuntu's grub, I rebooted. At boot I was presented the new grub list, with 4 entries for the new install, 4 entries for the old, 2 for memtest, and 1 for windows. So far so good.
But when I tried to boot the new installation, it said "partition not found". I manually edited the entry; it said "hd1,11", and I changed it to "hd0,11" and it worked. It booted into my new installation. I thought "Cool, so now the names are fixed"... But no, inside the system they're still named the old way. I also repeated the "find" command in grub, and it still says "hd1,8" and "hd1,11". Looks like AFTER the grub entry selection, hd0 gets mapped to hd1 and vice versa...
All this was done *without* removing the data disk. I'll try again after removing it...

EDIT: After removing the data disk, I still have to change the grub boot entry to "hd0,11": but then, after loading the OS, the "find" command gives "hd0,8" and "hd0,11". So the namings change boot-by-boot... But: in my /media folder, what in the old installation was sda1-8, is still called sdb1-8, so - bottom line - the programs still don't work because they point to the wrong place. What can I do now? Can I just rename them, and let the UUID system manage things when I insert/remove the data hard disk?

Cristian

[jankushka]

Re: Double Kubuntu install

well, we made some progress, didn't we?

the removable disk is not actually external, but internal, because it's connected to the 80-pin IDE bus.

exactly. that's the whole point.
remember when i asked whether you added/removed drives and you said no?
the answer, then, should have been, yes!

And my other hard disks are both on SATA bus, so their naming should not change when I add/remove the data disk.

no, no.
they do change.

And in my old installation, when I inserted/removed the data disk, nothing changed with namings. And, most important: when I installed both Kubuntus (the old and the new) the data drive was connected, so why did the drives get named differently?

this is something i still have to find an explanation for...
either the disk was not plugged in properly, or things are handled differently by different grubs
or by different versions of the drivers, ... i honestly don't know.

I don't really need to manage grub from both systems, because my plan was that, after setting and updating the new Ubuntu, I would just delete the old one, as I don't need two installations but just one that is working fine.

we're close.

But when I tried to boot the new installation, it said "partition not found". I manually edited the entry; it said "hd1,11", and I changed it to "hd0,11" and it worked.

you'll just have to edit the menu.lst file in the new installation now.
at least you don't have to manually edit the entry every time.

It booted into my new installation. I thought "Cool, so now the names are fixed"... But no, inside the system they're still named the old way.

yeah, well, those /dev/sda and /dev/sdb are there now.
you can't change those (at least not easily).

I also repeated the "find" command in grub, and it still says "hd1,8" and "hd1,11".

yeah. your removable p-ata disk is still plugged in.

Looks like AFTER the grub entry selection, hd0 gets mapped to hd1 and vice versa...

no, no.
see here below.

EDIT: After removing the data disk, I still have to change the grub boot entry to "hd0,11": but then, after loading the OS, the "find" command gives "hd0,8" and "hd0,11".

success!!!
you have to change the boot entry because the entries you're presented with
are read from the current menu.lst file of the /boot directory you've installed grub from.
which still has hd1 in it, after we reinstalled grub.
as said earlier, it is now sufficient to edit that file and replace hd1 with hd0.
or, reinstall grub again, making sure it sees your disk as hd0.
that is, making sure you removable p-ata is unplugged before you even turn the thing on...

So the namings change boot-by-boot...

no, i think we can now prettly confidently state that it depends on your removable p-ata.

But: in my /media folder, what in the old installation was sda1-8, is still called sdb1-8, so - bottom line - the programs still don't work because they point to the wrong place.

yeah, those /dev names are now sort of burned into the system.
your disk was detected as sdb, instead of sda, when you installed it, so that's that now.

Can I just rename them, and let the UUID system manage things when I insert/remove the data hard disk?

you could, yeah.
i think in your case the uuid mechanism makes sense (it must be the first time i bump into such a case ).
we would need to edit/fix: /etc/fstab and /boot/grub/menu.lst.

but, let's try yet another thing before we venture into editing...
pls...
turn off the pc
remove the removable p-ata drive
reboot with the kubuntu live cd and start the installation procedure
get to the partitioning bit
what does it say there: sda or sdb?
it must say sda (otherwise all my nice theory goes to the dogs ).
you could then continue the installation
and reinstall over your new installation (that is, over partition 12)
at least, everything in the system would get named sda again.
you can still adopt the uuid mechanism afterwards, to at least try and avoid further issues...

what do you think?

cheers

[Quaxo76]

Re: Double Kubuntu install

well, we made some progress, didn't we?

Definitely!

remember when i asked whether you added/removed drives and you said no?
the answer, then, should have been, yes!

Sorry... My mistake. I meant that I hadn't added or removed any *new* drives besides the one I regularly add/remove!!

And my other hard disks are both on SATA bus, so their naming should not change when I add/remove the data disk.

no, no.
they do change.

Now I see, you're right... They do change, but in the old installation I never noticed, because the system was set to mount the partitions in the /mount folder, *BY UUID or BY LABEL*, so that even though the name in /dev changed everytime, the label and UUID stayed the same, so they got mounted to the same place. Very useful and convenient if you ask me!

But when I tried to boot the new installation, it said "partition not found". I manually edited the entry; it said "hd1,11", and I changed it to "hd0,11" and it worked.

you'll just have to edit the menu.lst file in the new installation now.
at least you don't have to manually edit the entry every time.

I did that, and now the new installation boots fine, no problems there. I still have to try the old installation and Windows though.

EDIT: After removing the data disk, I still have to change the grub boot entry to "hd0,11": but then, after loading the OS, the "find" command gives "hd0,8" and "hd0,11".

success!!!
you have to change the boot entry because the entries you're presented with
are read from the current menu.lst file of the /boot directory you've installed grub from.
which still has hd1 in it, after we reinstalled grub.
as said earlier, it is now sufficient to edit that file and replace hd1 with hd0.

What I still don't understand, is why - regardless of the removable drive is plugged in or not - it still has to boot with (hd0,11). Shouldn't that change to (hd1,11) when the pata drive is plugged?

But: in my /media folder, what in the old installation was sda1-8, is still called sdb1-8, so - bottom line - the programs still don't work because they point to the wrong place.

yeah, those /dev names are now sort of burned into the system.
your disk was detected as sdb, instead of sda, when you installed it, so that's that now.

I managed to rename all the partitions to what I need them to be in the /media folder, using Control Center - System Administration - Disk & Filesystems. It all works now (by the way, I reinstalled the ntfs-3g package to have write access to the ntfs partitions). I only have one problem now: in my /media folder, I still have lots of folders named with the old partition names. I.e. the /dev/sdb5 was previously mapped to /media/sdb5; I renamed that so that it now points to /media/sda5, and that works; but I still have a /media/sdb5 folder, which is empty; and if I delete it, it gets recreated at next boot. How do I fix that? I only used the graphical tools, should I manually edit some config file?

i think in your case the uuid mechanism makes sense (it must be the first time i bump into such a case ).
we would need to edit/fix: /etc/fstab and /boot/grub/menu.lst.

Yes, it looks like the UUID system is really what saves my day!

but, let's try yet another thing before we venture into editing...
pls...
turn off the pc
remove the removable p-ata drive
reboot with the kubuntu live cd and start the installation procedure
get to the partitioning bit
what does it say there: sda or sdb?
it must say sda (otherwise all my nice theory goes to the dogs ).
you could then continue the installation
and reinstall over your new installation (that is, over partition 12)
at least, everything in the system would get named sda again.
you can still adopt the uuid mechanism afterwards, to at least try and avoid further issues...

what do you think?

I will try that and report ASAP. Not today because I'm going to work now!

Thank you so much for your help. I'm not an expert with these things and I've surely done stupid things and asked silly questions, and your help has been invaluable!

Cheers
Cristian

EDIT: I just had a look at my /etc/fstab file, and it looks like a mess, here it is:

# /etc/fstab: static file system information.
#
# -- This file has been automaticly generated by ntfs-config -- 
#
# <file system> <mount point>  <type> <options>    <dump> <pass>

proc /proc proc defaults 0 0
# Entry for /dev/sdb12 :
UUID=a7cd8dde-70b1-40c3-8671-3b9a6249b525 / ext3 nouser,defaults,errors=remount-ro,atime,auto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 1
# Entry for /dev/sdb10 :
UUID=ef04e859-8bd5-4e26-8af8-2a9434d7eefe /home ext3 nouser,defaults,atime,auto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 2
# Entry for /dev/sda1 :
UUID=0414503114502846 /media/sda1 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
# Entry for /dev/sdb1 :
UUID=162001B520019D3D /media/sdb1 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
LABEL=Mail /media/sda5 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
LABEL=Centotrenta /media/sda6 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
LABEL=XPlane /media/sda7 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
LABEL=C64_Amiga /media/sda8 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
# Entry for /dev/sdb9 :
UUID=64f8c4de-b1db-425b-8a44-84529148f99b /media/sda9 ext3 nouser,defaults,atime,auto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 2
LABEL=Mp3 /media/MP3 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
# Entry for /dev/sdb11 :
UUID=b3e2dd06-94fa-4e56-b57f-696efceb8920 none swap sw 0 0
/dev/scd2 /media/cdrom0 udf,iso9660 user,atime,noauto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 0
/dev/scd0 /media/cdrom1 udf,iso9660 user,atime,noauto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 0
/dev/scd1 /media/cdrom2 udf,iso9660 user,atime,noauto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 0
/dev/fd0 /media/floppy0 auto user,atime,noauto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 0
/dev/sda1 /media/Volume auto nouser,atime,auto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
/dev/sdc1 /media/Mp3 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
/dev/sdb8 /media/C64_Amiga ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
/dev/sdb7 /media/XPlane ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
/dev/sdb6 /media/Centotrenta ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
/dev/sdb5 /media/Mail ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
LABEL=C64_Amiga /media/sda8/ auto nouser,atime,noauto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
LABEL=C64_Amiga /media/sda8 auto nouser,atime,auto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
LABEL=XPlane /media/sda7 auto nouser,atime,noauto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
LABEL=Centotrenta /media/sda6 auto nouser,atime,noauto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
LABEL=Mail /media/sda5 auto nouser,atime,noauto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
UUID=162001B520019D3D /media/sda1 ext3 nouser,atime,auto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0

Am I right to think that it's a mess?

[jankushka]

Re: Double Kubuntu install

What I still don't understand, is why - regardless of the removable drive is plugged in or not - it still has to boot with (hd0,11). Shouldn't that change to (hd1,11) when the pata drive is plugged?

assuming the removable drive gets plugged in ahead of the other one on the bus,
and this is what appears to be from here...i agree, yeah, it should change to hd1.
just like it changed back to hd0 when you unplugged it.
and, i think i can state pretty confidently, depends on exactly when you un/plug the drive.
namely: before post or after.

unfortunately i can only try and simulate your setup.
i can't replicate it.

i also found this.
take a look at this page and at the links provided in it.
see if you find anything useful.

I managed to rename all the partitions to what I need them to be in the /media folder, using Control Center - System Administration - Disk & Filesystems. It all works now (by the way, I reinstalled the ntfs-3g package to have write access to the ntfs partitions). I only have one problem now: in my /media folder, I still have lots of folders named with the old partition names. I.e. the /dev/sdb5 was previously mapped to /media/sdb5; I renamed that so that it now points to /media/sda5, and that works; but I still have a /media/sdb5 folder, which is empty; and if I delete it, it gets recreated at next boot. How do I fix that? I only used the graphical tools, should I manually edit some config file?

i am rubbish with graphical tools.
don't know how to use them.
i'm a lot better off doing things manually on the command line.

I will try that and report ASAP. Not today because I'm going to work now!

yeah, me too.
but i'm finally off on holidays tomorrow night, so i'm not really up to doing anything...

Thank you so much for your help. I'm not an expert with these things and I've surely done stupid things and asked silly questions, and your help has been invaluable!

it's alright.
what you're doing is a pretty complex thing.
it might not look like it, but booting several instances of different operating systems,
attaching and detaching devices on the fly and make it all look as if it were a trivial operation,
well it's not...it's a damn complex thing.
but you should now have enough info and enough pointers to go on your own.
and you won't be able to count on me for a good 3 weeks, anyway.
'cause, as i said, i'm off on holidays...

# /etc/fstab: static file system information.
#
# -- This file has been automaticly generated by ntfs-config -- 
#
# <file system> <mount point> <type> <options>   <dump> <pass>

proc /proc proc defaults 0 0
# Entry for /dev/sdb12 :
UUID=a7cd8dde-70b1-40c3-8671-3b9a6249b525 / ext3 nouser,defaults,errors=remount-ro,atime,auto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 1
# Entry for /dev/sdb10 :
UUID=ef04e859-8bd5-4e26-8af8-2a9434d7eefe /home ext3 nouser,defaults,atime,auto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 2
# Entry for /dev/sda1 :
UUID=0414503114502846 /media/sda1 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
# Entry for /dev/sdb1 :
UUID=162001B520019D3D /media/sdb1 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
LABEL=Mail /media/sda5 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
LABEL=Centotrenta /media/sda6 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
LABEL=XPlane /media/sda7 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
LABEL=C64_Amiga /media/sda8 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
# Entry for /dev/sdb9 :
UUID=64f8c4de-b1db-425b-8a44-84529148f99b /media/sda9 ext3 nouser,defaults,atime,auto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 2
LABEL=Mp3 /media/MP3 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 1
# Entry for /dev/sdb11 :
UUID=b3e2dd06-94fa-4e56-b57f-696efceb8920 none swap sw 0 0
/dev/scd2 /media/cdrom0 udf,iso9660 user,atime,noauto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 0
/dev/scd0 /media/cdrom1 udf,iso9660 user,atime,noauto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 0
/dev/scd1 /media/cdrom2 udf,iso9660 user,atime,noauto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 0
/dev/fd0 /media/floppy0 auto user,atime,noauto,rw,dev,exec,suid 0 0
/dev/sda1 /media/Volume auto nouser,atime,auto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
/dev/sdc1 /media/Mp3 ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
/dev/sdb8 /media/C64_Amiga ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
/dev/sdb7 /media/XPlane ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
/dev/sdb6 /media/Centotrenta ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
/dev/sdb5 /media/Mail ntfs-3g defaults,locale=en_US.UTF-8 0 0
LABEL=C64_Amiga /media/sda8/ auto nouser,atime,noauto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
LABEL=C64_Amiga /media/sda8 auto nouser,atime,auto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
LABEL=XPlane /media/sda7 auto nouser,atime,noauto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
LABEL=Centotrenta /media/sda6 auto nouser,atime,noauto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
LABEL=Mail /media/sda5 auto nouser,atime,noauto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0
UUID=162001B520019D3D /media/sda1 ext3 nouser,atime,auto,rw,nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0

Am I right to think that it's a mess?

let's see...
you have several redundant entries, some contradictory mount options, some dev names, some uuids, some labels...
all in all, i'd say, yes, you are: it's a mess!!!

but, i think it can be fixed easily.

cheers

ps:
speak italian?

[Quaxo76]

Re: Double Kubuntu install

and, i think i can state pretty confidently, depends on exactly when you un/plug the drive.

Actually, it's not a hot-pluggable drive, so it only gets plugged/unplugged when the machine is powered off. I guess the devices aren't always detected in the same order at power on?

let's see...
you have several redundant entries, some contradictory mount options, some dev names, some uuids, some labels...
all in all, i'd say, yes, you are: it's a mess!!!

but, i think it can be fixed easily.

I'll try to fix that manually. I'll make a backup copy, just in case, and if things go "belly up" I will still be able to boot into the old installation and replace the backup from there!

ps:
speak italian?

Well, yes, I'm Italian! You noticed some of the label names, eh?
Cheers and have a good holiday!

Cristian

[jankushka]

Re: Double Kubuntu install

Actually, it's not a hot-pluggable drive, so it only gets plugged/unplugged when the machine is powered off...

sorry.
yeah.
of course you can only plug it in then.
what was i thinking...

I guess the devices aren't always detected in the same order at power on?

it's really funny.
if the removable drive is ahead of the rest, on the bus, it should be detected as hd0.
then the other should be shifted to hd1.
that's my understanding.

I'll try to fix that manually. I'll make a backup copy, just in case, and if things go "belly up" I will still be able to boot into the old installation and replace the backup from there!

yeah.
good idea.

Well, yes, I'm Italian! You noticed some of the label names, eh?
Cheers and have a good holiday!

sì, ho visto "centotrenta".

spero di essere stato almeno un minimo d'aiuto.
probabilmente ci si risentirà su questo forum ancora in futuro...

ciao.