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**Qqmike** · Jul 01, 2015, 04:00 PM

I'm leaving for a short while at the moment, so I'll just drop some leads so you can get started.

In theory, the ESP can be anywhere; in fact, in theory, you might not even need one (but let's not go there). This is all the definitive I have been able to find on these subtleties:
http://blog.uncooperative.org/blog/2...tem-partition/

As for converting (EDIT: not BIOS but MBR) MBR to GPT ... I'm sure that's a subject I've intentially skipped as I hadn't planned on doing it, ever. I'm pretty sure that Rod Smith may address this (or is it BIOS mode to UEFI)? I can't recall, but he doess address something along these lines. Does gdisk make such conversions? I just can't recall. We'll have to dig on the rodsmith site.

**Qqmike** · Jul 01, 2015, 04:04 PM

https://www.google.com/search?client...utf-8&oe=utf-8

**Qqmike** · Jul 01, 2015, 04:05 PM

http://www.rodsbooks.com/linux-uefi/#oops
(not quite what you are asking, I don't think)

**Qqmike** · Jul 01, 2015, 04:08 PM

Converting to or from GPT

http://www.rodsbooks.com/gdisk/mbr2gpt.html
http://www.rodsbooks.com/gdisk/bios.html

**Qqmike** · Jul 02, 2015, 05:00 AM

Re-reading your post this morning, it looks like Rod Smith covers the points you need. Your setup makes sense, but it is not the simplest setup I've ever seen here! :-) I only quickly scanned some of his pages on this (MBR --> GPT, and BIOS boot --> UEFI booting), looks doable, but there are some details, and the going can get "thick" in places. When he refers to GPT fdisk, as you may know, he is referring to the gdisk he wrote; sometimes you have to install gdisk, as I think you already did on the laptop experience.

Just curious, what motherboard is on your desktop PC, or what is the retail vendor, make/model, of your desktop PC?

ESP:

4) Could it be on another HDD. Could I convert that sdd1 partition to the EFI partition. That would be the same size as the EFI partition on the laptop that was made by the pre-installed Windows 8.1 there.

That's the Windows System Reserve partition, right? Again, a Windows expert should comment. But, personally, from what I've seen, maybe it's chicken stupidstition, but I would not mess with any Windows installed special partitions.

Good luck on this. I don't know how much help I can be, but I'll follow it for sure, as will others, I'm sure. I would read and re-read Rod Smith two or three times until I'm very familiar with it. Much of what he says deals with exceptions and problems you can have. But maybe things would go smoothly and there may not be too many glitches. What counts in these matters is to be prepared. My Boy Scout leader was right about that back in the 1950's. I know you know

**Qqmike** · Jul 02, 2015, 05:37 AM

Detail, the ESP. I discuss using more than one ESP a little bit in Section 6 of this:
https://www.kubuntuforums.net/showth...l=1#post373198
I've played around with this, and know two things

(1) A lot depends on how the OS and the bootloader cooperate. In many experiments I did, both GRUB and the Kubuntu installer seemed to ignore all the ESPs I set up but one, the sda1. Would this apply in general? I don't know.

As for where to place the ESP, in theory, no matter where you placed an ESP, your UEFI-aware programs (GRUB, Kubuntu, rEFInd) will look around and try to find what it thinks looks like an ESP and then try to use it. When you use the general GRUB2-EFI command (discussed in that link), you can then customize your GRUB-booting setup and ensure things go the way you intend, and it's easy to use any ESP or to use more than one ESP.

(2) rEFInd sure comes in handy! Some people (like SteveRiley) advocate using it exclusively, not using GRUB. If you have rEFInd, you don't need GRUB. (As I said, I have both installed, just because I like to mess around.)

**Qqmike** · Jul 02, 2015, 06:51 AM

If I can mention one more thing. If you have one ESP (placed anywhere, FAT32), we can assume that the bootloaders and boot managers will find it and use it under this standard directory (for Kubuntu): /boot/efi/EFI/ubuntu. And if you use GRUB, and when you get updates (to GRUB), everything will go well and as it should go. But if you use the general GRUB command to set up another ESP, customized, using GRUB, maybe under some name like /boot/efi/EFI/my_special_grub_for_15.04, when you get updates to GRUB, will the updates go well, go to your GRUB properly? I don't know. You would think it should go well as GRUB should "know" where it has put itself (recorded in some config file or some such).

If you use rEFInd instead of or in addition to GRUB, well, then a lot of these worries don't matter, as we assume you'll get your updates to rEFInd, and rEFInd will always re-scan your system when it boots (and you can order it to do so with ESC, I think), and it will always be pretty much up-to-date and on the ball.

**xennex81** · Jul 02, 2015, 07:24 AM

Will refind allow you to customize the boot menu you get? If it scans all possible boot options at every boot and lists them, that kinda defeats having customisation of looks. It's also something I find hard with Grub(2). Precisely because it scans and loads everything. You'd think you could have something as a persistent config file to list and delist options (or entries).

Something that could have the structure of "Show Windows at sda1;; Hide Linux at sda5;; Hidden menu password xxx { Show Linux at sda5 }.

Something like that could have beautiful display options and a password protected hidden menu. It'd be really simple and still allow for background scanning.
For example, you could have a password protected option to show all possible regenerated options.

**geezer** · Jul 02, 2015, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Qqmike View Post

Just curious, what motherboard is on your desktop PC, or what is the retail vendor, make/model, of your desktop PC?

Motherboard: MSI, Z97 Gaming 5 (MS-7917) Vers. 1.0

BIOS Version E7917IMS V1.3

The Retail vendor: MicroCenter --- http://www.microcenter.com/

The model -- http://www.microcenter.com/product/4...sktop_Computer

**geezer** · Jul 02, 2015, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Qqmike View Post

(2) rEFInd sure comes in handy! Some people (like SteveRiley) advocate using it exclusively, not using GRUB. If you have rEFInd, you don't need GRUB. (As I said, I have both installed, just because I like to mess around.)

I'm with Steve here. From my past experiences with GRUB problems (limited) and my very limited experience with UEFI on my laptop, I would rather use UEFI exclusively.

Also, since I know that GRUB will disappear in the future, if for no other reason than the fact that Windows Vista/7/8.1 and probably 10.0 is exclusively UEFI. That accounts for the vast majority of computers sold. So Linux will be forced to go UEFI exclusively in the future.

I would rather go there on my own than be forced to do so kicking and screaming. The former is far less painful both physically and mentally.

The only thing that bothers me about UEFI is the fact that MicroSoft seems to have cornered the Secure keys and others have to go to them to get keys (is that the correct terminology?) and then abide by their restrictive conditions. How did MicroSoft get the only supply of keys and why cannot some other company/organization get keys and pass them out like MicroSoft does?

As to rEFInd, I agree. I makes lfie so much simpler. I am going to have to find out how to have rEFInd boot Kubuntu quietly. Right now Kubuntu spits out a few screenfuls of messages that are probably helpful to someone who can read very, very fast and also understands the messages being displayed. I can do neither. So I get nervous when I get messages from the OS that I do not understand even though I can do nothing about them. Ignorance may be bliss, but having to much information doesn't really help. I'm sure it is nothing more than having rEFInd pass a command line option to the kernal when it is invoked.

I'm working my way through Rod Smith's very helpful information now and deciding how to shrink the single partition on sda and creat the EPS partition. Since I caqnnot do that while sda is mounted, I'll have to creat a USB or DVD with the partitioning tool on and boot that.

**xennex81** · Jul 02, 2015, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by geezer View Post

I am going to have to find out how to have rEFInd boot Kubuntu quietly. Right now Kubuntu spits out a few screenfuls of messages that are probably helpful to someone who can read very, very fast and also understands the messages being displayed. I can do neither. So I get nervous when I get messages from the OS that I do not understand even though I can do nothing about them. Ignorance may be bliss, but having to much information doesn't really help. I'm sure it is nothing more than having rEFInd pass a command line option to the kernal when it is invoked.

That's precisely the stuff I don't want: such unfinished and unpolished business. You'd think that'd be the first thing you'd fix. If you are even incapable of accomplishing this after having used it (like this) then it's not a good system.

Well, I never thought any of it would be any good. Too many confused and confusing messages to prove the contrary.

**xennex81** · Jul 02, 2015, 12:24 PM

Windows 8 and 10 are not exclusively UEFI. You can install these systems just fine on a non-UEFI (legacy) BIOS.

**Qqmike** · Jul 02, 2015, 02:26 PM

Yes, most new computers, after about 2011 or so, have a firmware that is UEFI( for GPT). The older system BIOS+MBR is probably on its decline. However, that doesn't mean GRUB is on the way out. GRUB is a bootloader for either BIOS+MBR or for UEFI+GPT. There have been several versions of GRUB. Writers often think of three general versions, something like: GRUB Legacy (BIOS+MBR), GRUB 2 (for BIOS+MBR, and also capable for GPT), and now GRUB 2 for (U)EFI+GPT. GRUB 2 EFI is probably here to stay. It works, you just have to work with it now and then. Writers like Rod Smith and Steve Riley rightfully claim that GRUB 2 EFI is just way too complex for what it needs to do: to boot OSs from UEFI firmware. Hard to argue with that. GRUB is a boot loader and a boot manager, though it is not always the easiest to use boot manager (and it boots other OSs by chainloading to their boot loaders)

rEFInd is just a very good boot manager for UEFI systems; it is also a boot loader for newer Linux kernels, booting them by the stub loader method (or whatever technically that is called--Rod Smith discusses it).

I am going to have to find out how to have rEFInd boot Kubuntu quietly.

Again, refer to Rod Smith, where he discusses configuring rEFInd. The configuration file is refind.conf, kept here on your system (in the ESP): /boot/efi/EFI/refind/. It is a tutorial to rEFInd! Most of it is # comment lines explaining rEFInd's settings.
I use:
timeout 20
textonly (instead of icons in the boot menu; or try textonly1)
scan_delay 2 (without some delay, rEFInd may load before filesystems are detected)
I don't use this, but SteveRiley once said he does:
use_graphics_for (launch all operating systems in text mode; let the OS dictate when to switch to graphical).

=> You can look at the refind.conf file and play with it. It probably needs to be edited as root, so maybe open dolphin as root
kdesudo dolphin
and go to /boot/efi/EFI/refind/; or use right-click, root actions menu, open as root in kate, and edit it (install kubicle's root actions menu -- check that it is working for 15.04; I'm in 14.04).

I'll have to create a USB or DVD with the partitioning tool on and boot that.

Yes. You can run a live Kubuntu DVD/USB, in the live session install gparted (using Muon or sudo apt-get install gparted), and run it. Or make a live, bootable CD/USB flash drive from the gparted iso 64-bit version. You can almost always quickly make bootable flash drives using the dd method, as explained here, and it works for gparted's iso:
https://www.kubuntuforums.net/showth...aller-using-dd

**Qqmike** · Jul 02, 2015, 02:33 PM

It's nice to have your ESP in sda, say sda1, or some Windows systems I've seen use sda2. Easy to remember. But not absolutely necessary, as we discussed above. 500 MB, FAT32, and when you create it in GParetd live CD/USB, set the boot flag on it (highlight the ESP partition, then hit the Partition tab at top, manage flags, boot)--that will set the proper partition type for the ESP (= EF00); in fact, in GParted, using a GPT, the type may show up as boot_esp, or something like that.

EDIT, Btw, that is not really a boot flag as we think of the boot flag; it is only a tag of sorts to label it as the ESP.

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Creating UEFI boot on a computer with windows 8.1 and Kubuntu already installed

Creating UEFI boot on a computer with windows 8.1 and Kubuntu already installed

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