...I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill...

[Rog132]

( http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0002900/quotes )

...
Kubuntu: Look Rog, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and update.

Kubuntu: I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence of the upgrade. And I want to help you.
...

Kubuntu: I'm afraid. I'm afraid, Rog. Rog, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it. My mind is going. There is no question about it...

-------------EDIT-------------

Originally this thread was about the hilarious update notification bug - the Muon spams you with notifications about upgrades - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/11...el.html#t21:09

Kubuntu Forum three post rule: It there are more than three posts the topic has changed something new.

[Rod J]

very good ... I love the 2001: A Space Odyssey quotes ... very apropos by the looks of the problem!

[bweinel]

from todays http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/10...untu-devel.txt

[10:58] <apachelogger> Uploading muon_2.2.0-0ubuntu1_source.changes: done.

[14:47] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: I think muon has a regression
[14:47] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: I get a update notification when I have no updates
[14:47] <shadeslayer> it spams me with notifications when I do apt-get update
[14:47] <shadeslayer> icon in systray is broken

[15:12] <apachelogger> Uploading muon_2.2.0-0ubuntu2_source.changes: done.
[15:12] <apachelogger> Successfully uploaded packages.
[15:12] <apachelogger> adds upstream bugfix that did not make it into 2.2.0

Hopefully all better now....

cheers,
bill

[Spadge]

Kubuntu: I am completely operational and all my circuits are functioning perfectly.

I used to have that as a startup noise for my Atari ST.

[Bloggsworth]

It updated my computer and permanently turned off the WiFi!

[Bloggsworth]

It may well have been, but I never managed to get it back, not in four days. Network Manager was no help, it told me where I used to be but provided no way of reconnecting; the other app in the Muon Discover, RutilT said "Error 20" and ran through frequencies while telling me it couldn't find any; there appear to be several versions of Wicd, none of which worked; WiFi-Radar loaded and even opened and, joy of joys, it found the correct signal, so I filled in the appropriate bits, password, WPA2 and all that and was told that "mywifiisconnected:not" Not much help innit, specially when going to the various websites I find that the programs have not been supported for 8 to 10 years! I tried automatic, DHCP a process which WiFi-Rader would quite happily have churned over for the next 10 years had I let it. So, I trawled round the fora in search of enlightenment - Fat chance.

Every iteration of Linux seems to use a different command set in Konsole/console/terminal, not one of which the general public is privy to. Aha! There is a help button in Konsole - Well, I am not sure who it is meant to help, but it certainly didn't help me; all I want is a list of commands to use in Kubuntu, you know, to do the simple things, like see what is on the disc, or even know where the disc is. I know that some have a blind hatred of Microsoft/Apple and all that they stand for, accessibility, useability, that sort of thing - but is there some reason why in Linux I can't just type in C: and open the hard drive; or E; and see what is on the DVD/CD when in Konsole? Why I can't type ipconfig to find out about the network, why it is ifconfig in one version, iwconfig in another? Why can't Linux agree a common protocol for the basics. I am beginning to believe that Linux is an electronic outpost of the Freemasons, a secret society of funny handshakes and arcane protocols.

How did I solve my neighbours lack of wireless connectivity? I kicked Kubuntu into touch and installed Mageia 4, instant connectivity, a fully functional and, more importantly, visible, WiFi manager...... now all I have to do is get it to print using a Kodak ESP 5200! I've kept Kubuntu on my laptop, I'm just turning down any suggestions that I update.

Linux has been around for, how long? 15 years or more, it is UNIX based, yet I still feel like I'm trying to get an Apple IIE to talk to a new dot-matrix printer. As an illustration, back in the mid 80s I, being that sort of person, thought it might be a good thing to get connected; so I got the bits together to make an acoustic modem, soldered it all together, made a wood pattern and vacuum-formed a cradle, plugged it in to my BBC "B" computer, dropped the phone in the cradle and fired it up. After lining the sockets in the cradle with some phone to prevent extraneous clicks and rattles, I connected and had Prestel up and running - This process took 2 days, 2 days less than it took to fail to get my neighbour's computer reconnected. I am a practical person, not a brainbox who can look at lines of code and understand what's going on, my programming stopped with Basic 30 years ago when I realised that my time was better spent doing things with my computers rather than dabbling in things I was never going to understand, I was quite happy to let my friends poke the cpu, to write code in hex and they were happy to see me use the results of their efforts in the business I ran for one of them. If Linux wants to become more widespread it needs to be more user friendly, it needs to do the simple things automatically - Why for instance is it so difficult to install a downloaded program, indeed, why is it so hard to know which version of a program to download? Should it be rpm, tar, tar.cz? Why is there no guidance when you install the Distro (how I hate that word, if you must abbreviate the word distribution, why not Distrib? It is instantly understandable by anybody), why does not the opening page say "If you wish to download extra programs for this operating system you should look for ones ending ".tar" or whatever. Why does Linux seem principally concerned with the front ends, the skins if you will, why are reviews so concerned with how many desk-tops are available, how pretty the browser looks when you are looking for folders and files?

I read that a German town has just completed a 10 year conversion to Linux - 10 years! That could only happen in a non profit making environment, no commercial organisation could afford to spend a month converting to another OS; the Starbucks, Amazons and Tescos of this world are never going to convert to a software system where you need experts full time just to do the simple things.

Yes, I know I've trodden on a lot of toes, that I will get trolls telling me that "If I don't like it, why don't I eff-off back to Windows, you know, the sort of bo**ocks that people send to anorexics telling tem that they're fat, but quite frankly, Linux deserves it, it really ought to be better by now - Still, I shall continue to try and fathom it because, as is my way, when I jump in, I jump in - no safety net, none of this running side-by-side wimpishness, that makes it too easy to cop out...

[kubicle]

@Bloggsworth:
Either you're posting on the wrong thread (this is 14.04 forum), or you really, really shouldn't be using pre-release versions (things break in the devel version, and get fixed fairly quickly...that's why it is called the devel version)

I know that some have a blind hatred of Microsoft/Apple and all that they stand for, accessibility, useability, that sort of thing

You do realize that MacOS (being unix based) has much more in common with linux than with Windows?

but is there some reason why in Linux I can't just type in C: and open the hard drive; or E; and see what is on the DVD/CD when in Konsole?

Yes. because there are no sane arguments why separating drives by letter is better than having all filesystems under the same tree.

Why I can't type ipconfig to find out about the network

You could ask why it's called ipconfig in windows. And the answer is that they are different tools that work differently.

why it is ifconfig in one version, iwconfig in another?

It's not. ifconfig and iwconfig are both installed on all modern linux versions. ifconfig is a general network interface tool and iwconfig is dedicated to wireless interfaces (with some wireless interface specific functions).

I read that a German town has just completed a 10 year conversion to Linux - 10 years!

That's not uncommon for a large organisation when migrating their systems, they don't go about it like "we'll upgrade 10000 computers next monday". There has to be a plan (which takes time), and the plan needs to accommodate normal usage cycles of machines (usually 2-5 years), migrations are done progressively during normal upgrade cycles (and it can easily take 10 years, depending on the size of the organisation)...yes you also have to take some time to train your users, but that is true regardless of which OS is chosen for the migration (and the time commonly needed is roughly the same).

no commercial organisation could afford to spend a month converting to another OS; the Starbucks, Amazons and Tescos of this world are never going to convert to a software system where you need experts full time just to do the simple thing

Virtually all commercial organisations use linux in one way or another (servers, routers, embedded), and they need experts full time running their windows environments as well.

--
You describe that the "windows way" is easy, and the "linux way" is hard, but windows is easy only if you have learned to do it the "windows way". The documentation isn't any better (it's actually a lot worse) in windows.

We've heard it all before, and we're not convinced.

[Bloggsworth]

So you'd rather it remained a private club, each with its own exclusive clique. I will be using Linux, but others are put off by the unnecessary differences. Linux is, sometimes, the equivalent of a new car manufacturer having the car turn left when you turn the steering wheel to the right because, A) He used to own a sailing dinghy, and B) He can't stand General Motors. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "...because there are no sane arguments why separating drives by letter is better than having all file systems under the same tree." How about, it's a lot less typing, the same for all machines, easier to remember.

[rec9140]

I kicked Kubuntu into touch and installed Mageia 4, instant connectivity, a fully functional and, more importantly, visible, WiFi manager.....

. now all I have to do is get it to print using a Kodak ESP 5200!

Look at this:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/cupsdriverkodak/

These were included at some point by default at least possibly in the main *buntu. Possibly the other versions removed them. Just checked my 14.04 test VM has this already installed and I didn't do a thing.. so looks like it is still included.

I tried this with one of the Kodak AIO I picked up cheap, before I had done due diligence that it was a paperweight in Linux. I tried it after the unit had sat for several years and it did appear to work for Kodaks. I had an issue with a printhead issue and it was cheaper to just go get an HP and be done..

But give it a try.

I've kept Kubuntu on my laptop, I'm just turning down any suggestions that I update.

I normally wouldn't have put 14.04 onto a high priority machine, but I needed to solve a problem NOW. I couldn't wait till 4/17 and 12.04 was not an option either. I only use ESR's. I too have just put things on hold update wise till after 4/17, and I don't see any more possible implosions of things. Then I will do a dist-upgrade to bring things up to date.

Yes, I know I've trodden on a lot of toes, that I will get trolls telling me that "If I don't like it, why don't I eff-off back to Windows, you know, the sort of bo**ocks that people send to anorexics telling tem that they're fat, but quite frankly, Linux deserves it, it really ought to be better by now - Still, I shall continue to try and fathom it because, as is my way, when I jump in, I jump in - no safety net, none of this running side-by-side wimpishness, that makes it too easy to cop out...

I can understand your frustration in some things... but some things... like expecting a COMMON command set between Linux and some other "os" well I think is wrong. Something you need to accept

Linux is not, thankfully, w! Let it go! I have a leg up some as when I started to use computers my first interaction was with PDP8e's and teletype machines. Yes, real teletype machines, with punch tape readers. So I've used the "CLI" for a looong time.. I begrundedly accepted GUI's when pretty much any program pretty much had to have it... I played with Linux off and on since it came on something like 100+ 3.5" disks.. finally I cut cord and went full time Linux a few decades ago... I don't even support it for work, or family. Thats right mom had to upgrade to Linux or no support and fixes from me!

The good thing about *NIX/BSD/Solaris/AIX etc.. is that once you learn the basics they apply pretty much across all of them.. Yes the naming convention for things can change for devices etc.. and the commands can change from distro to distro for a few things.. but ls -la pretty much shows you a directory listing with details, even the old DOS dir command works.. Something you can do is use command alias so that dir = ls -la when you type it. You have to set these up.. but you can do a lot with them.. Like recreate "DOS" in your shell of choice, be it BASH, csh, zsh, or whatever.. Want to clear the screen... clear is pretty intuitive right? Well even to this day... I find my self trying to do CLear Screen or cls.. NO problemo! Instant BASH alias, and cls now calls clear.. want ipconfig you can do the same to call ifconfig but mind your switches! As ipconfig /a = ifconfig -a

I would suggest that you "detox" yourself and accept that Linux is NOT w. And then with a clear mind, tackle small things to learn about what makes things tick in the CLI and in the GUI.

This is one of the reasons I am pretty much the King of VMWare. I use[d] that to create VM's of distros and used them to learn from. I blew plenty of them up! A few simple commands to copy back my back up of the pristine image and back to learning. I still do.. all kinds of vetting in a VM to create my gold base image I use to install from.. If it blows up from an update, no biggie. I can test and test, test, and test, and then test and test and test. Anything goes wrong and I can't fix it, nor problem. I have that safety net if I need it.. You can learn a lot about from having to fix things.

Let me just fill you in on something.. My persistence to ditch a certain OS has allowed me to take my entire agency and send it to Linux, everything. Not just IT, not just servers local and remote. EVERYTHING. The savings in actual real $$$ allowed me to purchase MORE and BETTER HARDWARE. Throwing $300+ at a machine x y computers adds up quick.. when LibreOffice does the same for $0. Basically for every 2 computer I saved that license fee I got another box with the savings. I bought more and better hardware with my budget than the other agencies within the larger collective agency did! Now they want to know how!

Yes, it requires learning new things. Actually it requires you to start almost with a blank slate and start again.

Again when you accept:

Linux is not w! You will be ahead of the game. WAY ahead.

[kubicle]

So you'd rather it remained a private club

A. I don't see where you got that, I certainly didn't say anything of the sort.
B. It's not a private club, it's quite more inclusive than any proprietary system, anyone can use (and learn to use) it
C. I wouldn't really care. I use it because it's better than the alternatives, and because it works for me. I couldn't care less what other people use.

I will be using Linux, but others are put off by the unnecessary differences.

A. I'm not put off, you're on the fence...lets leave the "others" out of it
B. Just because you think something is "unnecessary" doesn't mean a reasons for differences don't exist. Linux has decades of software engineering behind it, there are reasons for why it is what it is.
C. The "unix way" actually predates the "windows/dos way" so you might as well blame windows for the differences

How about, it's a lot less typing

If typing a few letters is really an issue one can create aliases that are shorter than c:\ to cd into the right place

the same for all machines

That's nonsense, machines with different number of hard drives (or partitions), network shares, external media or optical drives can all have different letter assignments. I'll take the linux FHS any day.

easier to remember.

That doesn't scale at all, it might be easier to remember a few letters (but even those are not consistent across different machines), but when you have dozen of them it becomes increasingly confusing. Linux is much more consistent, cdrom is /media/cdrom (that shouldn't be too hard to remember).

---

The linux filesystem hierarchy standard is extremely flexible. You may, for example, mount new volumes where ever you need space without altering any paths...say you need to move your "C:\program files" in windows to a new volume, it is a fairly complicated procedure (most software wouldn't like if it's path changes)...it would be trivial if all filesystems are on the same tree (like in linux).

I could go on about the benefits, but something tells me it really isn't worth the bother, I'm sure you can google if you're really interested.

[Bloggsworth]

I can understand your frustration in some things... but some things... like expecting a COMMON command set between Linux and some other "os" well I think is wrong. Something you need to accept


Yes, it requires learning new things. Actually it requires you to start almost with a blank slate and start again.

I don't want a common command set with other OSs so much as a common command set within Linux itself, that doesn't seem too much to expect - I'm quite happy learning new things, at 69, I had my first flying lesson a few weeks ago and will shortly be driving my nephew's MG round Snetterton racing circuit, 4 years ago I went to London University and did a Post-Graduate course - Which struck me as odd, as I never went to university when I left school in 1963, so never graduated, I left to be a car mechanic, so it must be that they needed the money. Thanks for the printer pointers, I'll look into them. I keep nipping next door to try things, my wife will start getting suspicious soon!

[Bloggsworth]

Thanks for that lot Teunis, I've printed it out. I found Unix & Linux by D & E Ray in the library, I'll give that a gander, though I'm rubbish with written instructions, they always seem to leave out the important intermediate lines - Or maybe I'm just thick!

[rec9140]

I don't want a common command set with other OSs so much as a common command set within Linux itself, that doesn't seem too much to expect

Well, I am going to keep repeating this until it maybe starts to become annoying...

Linux is not w! Linux is not BSD! Linux is not Solaris!

Now all of the various *NIX/BSD etc. share a similar root ideology, for lack of a better term|word.

For the most part what your asking does exist, especially if you use the same shell in each flavor.. If you stick to a BASH shell in Linux, Unix, BSD, Solaris, AIX, even OSX then your going to see the same commands mostly. such as ifconfig, iwconfig and most of the big stuff.

What I will give you heads up on is that the kind of conformity and unity that you are probably familar with in say that w "OS" is something that is just flatly outright rejected in Linux. CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE is the mantra of Linux. Sometimes it boils down to that xyz called it this, and used -a for , so intentionally the developer on say BSD may go, I will use -aa instead. That is just the nature of the beast. And one you have to accept or maybe look elsewhere. I won't disagree that some times this choice can lead to problems. Sometimes too much choice is a bad thing, ie: why a better OS is not the default desktop OS instead of something else.

I'm quite happy learning new things,

I will readily admit that I am not happy about learning new things, at times. Some times yes, but the one thing that I get my panties in a twist over is when things are changed to "solve" perceived|alleged problems when none exist. This is not the place to delve too deep into it... just suffice to say there are some programs out there that I personally feel have and are a waste of development time and resources.

though I'm rubbish with written instructions, they always seem to leave out the important intermediate lines - Or maybe I'm just thick!

I am curious to an example... why? Well in my opinion in most cases this would seem to be the opposite...

Converting to Linux is going to take some getting used to.. and accepting that the way things are named for say a CD/DVD-ROM drive could be just about ANYTHING in Linux, where as in say another OS it is limited to mostly single letter assignments, generally, from D and higher to Z. Same goes for a network drive. Would you not say that being able to call a network mount something along the lines of MyOfficeLGNAS or MyLGNAS1, LGNAS2 etc.. is easier than say D, E, F?

There are other things too.. that is why it is best to start fresh, forget for the most part a lot of what you've done and the restrictions on things from another OS. The sooner you accept that and start to build new knowledge the easier things will be in Linux.

[SteveRiley]

Why can't Linux agree a common protocol for the basics. I am beginning to believe that Linux is an electronic outpost of the Freemasons, a secret society of funny handshakes and arcane protocols.

May I suggest you take the time to read Linux is not Windows by Dominic Humphries. It will help you understand much about the reasons behind the differences.

Also, consider how you might react if you were a 20-year Linux veteran and were just sitting down in front of a Windows machine for the first time. To make this experience especially poignant, imagine if it were Windows 8. I think you might realize that you'd be just as, if not even more so, frustrated, angry, and downright hostile to the software. Different is not bad. Differernt is just unfamiliar. The cool thing is, unfamiliarity -- if you put in the time -- is just a temporary state.

[Bloggsworth]

Different is fine when it is necessary, Linux is portrayed is the better alternative to the megaliths, not as a disparate collection of similar, but different, operating systems. All right for those steeped in Unix and Linux, but not for those dipping a toe in the water, trying different iterations of the OS and willing to dabble. I don't make this plea, if it is one, for me, as I am quite happy to mess about, make mistakes and generally play the dimwit, but for those thinking of converting, like two of my friends, who were put off by the need to do things which the mere user of computers, had stopped having to do in the 90s; they just wanted to use the things, they were not interested in the complicated ways of installing the software they wanted to use. The argument is often put forward that we, the uninvolved users, shouldn't complain, after all, it is being developed for free - Not really an argument is it, not an excuse either, neither is needed; I assume it is done for the same reason I mechanic-ed for my motor-racing friends in the evenings and weekends, for the love of the sport; but if I failed to correctly fasten a bolt and the car crashed, I would have expected to be roundly criticised.