No decent package manager

[claydoh]

The 'claydoh's blog of ill repute' : http://claydoh.com/ has the long (?) history of the Kubuntu package managers: http://claydoh.com/kubuntu-and-package-managers/


Seen them all and still using the apt-get from the command line - maybe they are too late and too little for me...

Lol just who is that masked blogger, and why doesn't he update that article....

Sent from my Droid DNA using Tapatalk, like that really matters

[Snowhog]

Well, we think he isn't on the NSA's top ten list -- that we know of!

[claydoh]

As to making a choice of package managers, Kubuntu does try to stick to one tool per job. I saw discussion on that recently.

One thing to note on the whole decision on this was at least in part due to a fairly sudden loss of development on muon. This seems to have been assuaged with others taking the reins.

Sent from my Droid DNA using Tapatalk, like that really matters

[Teunis]

Yes I agree it seemed the Muon developer had lost appetite or was too busy feeding the family and then Apper came in view.
The present Muon Discoverer is a nice tool for demo's etc. but many need something more substantial.
apt-get works without flaw be it you need to learn a bunch of switches, not everyone's cup of tea.

[GreyGeek]

.....At the pace I'm getting a handle on signals and slots, it's going to be awhile!

I love Qt. Need any help? Have any questions? Want sample code? Just let me know.

[oshunluvr]

Thanks Jerry! It's mostly an issue of time. I'm working, have a business, and prepping for a cross-country move! So I need to add a new task to my plate, right? Hopefully, I'll have some time later this year to spend a few months concentrating on learning. It takes longer at my age (as you know ) but I'm looking forward to producing something useful. I'll hit you up later on, you can count on it!

[dequire]

I have to agree with Kubuntu's decision here to only include Muon Discover by default. How many threads, for instance, are here on the forums with new users scratching their heads and going...ok....uhm...I see Muon Updater, package manager, and discover. I'm lost...

Plus your favorite package manager is only click in Discover away - or the CLI, if you prefer. Discover has a great "Software Center" look to it. And it works great! Also gives a lot more information than a package manager will including reviews, ratings, and 'Recommends'.

Let's not also forget an important and cool function that Discover allows and people from other OS's, esp. including iOS and Android, are used to: Being able to run the newly installed app right from Discover! When you think about one of the most annoying things about the way KDE handles updating the Kickoff menu (i.e. newly-installed apps simply don't show up for a while), the ability to launch an app you just installed from right within Discover is both really cool and really necessary, IMHO.

The majority of ppl in this thread, including me, would likely use the CLI for most any 'package' oriented tasks. But a new user would neither know what a CLI is, or what a package manager is...

[oshunluvr]

While I agree with the above commentary, I think the new user eventually discovers the CLI because eventually, one of the available package managers fails (crashes leaving the system un-update-able) or something else crashes during an update causing the same.

What I see as the failure of the package managers in general is the inability to properly handle these events. What they excel in is giving the user the opportunity to explore what's available among 40,000+ packages.

Simply providing more feedback to the user during operations (other than just a cool progress bar) and having necessary tools to repair breakage would be phenomenal.

[dequire]

While I agree with the above commentary, I think the new user eventually discovers the CLI because eventually, one of the available package managers fails (crashes leaving the system un-update-able) or something else crashes during an update causing the same.

What I see as the failure of the package managers in general is the inability to properly handle these events. What they excel in is giving the user the opportunity to explore what's available among 40,000+ packages.

Simply providing more feedback to the user during operations (other than just a cool progress bar) and having necessary tools to repair breakage would be phenomenal.

Oshunluvr: I agree most users will get there eventually out of necessity at some point. I don't agree that, for the majority of user cases, this is a good thing. I too have had issues with every package manager in the past in one form or another. Like, for instance, when the package manager can't get a dpkg lock. That's really annoying.

Since Muon is now again being actively maintained / developed, perhaps we should be filing wishlist bugs against Muon to show it's real-world deficiencies?

[Teunis]

Exactly, a package manager is a must in the modern computer consumer market.
The latest version of Muon I was originally complaining about is from it's layout a great step in the right direction.
But Linux being in a perpetual Alpha, and by consequence Kubuntu at best in a Beta state, also needs a package manager that's no-nonsense and caters to the power user.

Muon proper has come a long way, the bits missing are well described by oshunluvr, it's the handling of exceptions or unusual events.
A simple, maybe temporary, solution would be to have a button similar to F4 in Dolphin, an included terminal window to observe the feedback.

[oshunluvr]

I didn't intend to indicate that a new Linux user having to "discover" the CLI for package management corrective action was a good thing. Rather that it is an eventual necessity because of the problems I listed. Although, now that I think about it it may actually be a good thing - it does illustrate one of the best things about Linux as an OS - it can be fixed.

A terminal viewport as Teunis suggests would be a major step in in the right direction. I would also like to see a command set for fixing these errors. Removing the lock files and running dpkg -a --configure wouldn't be overwhelming add-ons IMO. The ultimate functionality I envision would be a pop-up warning message describing the error with a "Fix It" button available.

The basic program I'm working on (supposedly ) would be just a viewport to the terminal with a set of apt-get/dpkg command buttons. I.e. Update, Upgrade, Install, Remove, Purge, etc.

I propose we come to a consensus of the best GUI style look for Muon to handle errors/exceptions from a new user/non-CLI perspective and submit a feature request to the maintainer(s).

[jglen490]

I use apt-get, occasionally dpkg, and even Muon. But, about all I use the GUI Muon for in most cases is if I know what KIND of software I'm looking for, but just not sure of the exact name. But, for in-distro upgrades and security patches apt-get is the best. Even after the tray widget notifies me of available updates, I just go straight to the always on terminal window and get it done. So, yes, Linux once again is the best and most flexible OS in the universe.

[Guest]

I generally agree with the sentiments of this discussion. I believe that the developers have a belief that all users have the same view as them as to what a good package manager should look like. In the extreme cases they consider themselves to be missionaries out to convert us heathens out in the wild. Here, on the eastern shore of the pond, car manufacturers seem to be trying to convert us drivers to convert to automatic trnsmissions. Being a cynic, it can only be because their franchise garages get more money from the repair and maintenance of automatics. Personally, I have driven a manual transmission car for over 50 years but I am lethal in an automatic car. I think that the same applies to package managers: I am quite happy with apt but equally I find synaptic to be usable.
Having just installed 14.04 beta-1 with only muon discoverer. That "tool" needs a whole lot on line help and documentation; in its present form it is unhelpful, even dangerous. After nearly 20 minutes I persuaded it to install muon - I have no idea how much damage it inflicted in the process due to the total lack of useful feed back. Once I had muon, I used it to install synaptic. My first run of synaptic resulted with a painless update to some 272 packages and repairs to another 6 packages. My point is, whatever your preferences are, muon discoverer really needs a lot in the way of guidance before it is inflicted on the lay user. I am not a newby; I have "played" with computers for over 40 years and *nixes of many flavours for 30 of them. Most advances in computing have made computing more accessible to the lay user. I do not believe that muon d is such an advance in its present form.

A little Knowledge is dangerous.
There is nobody more dangerous as someone who doesn't know what he doesn't know

[dequire]

I didn't intend to indicate that a new Linux user having to "discover" the CLI for package management corrective action was a good thing. Rather that it is an eventual necessity because of the problems I listed. Although, now that I think about it it may actually be a good thing - it does illustrate one of the best things about Linux as an OS - it can be fixed.

Temporarily off-topic (perhaps), but just in case anyone was wondering how the fastest-growing OS in the world - ChromeOS - treats the command line for a typical user, well, a picture is worth a thousand words...

[dequire]

I have pinged Harold on kubuntu-devel about some thoughts on Discover. Here's the quote:

[00:12:24] <ronnoc> apachelogger: re: kde bug 331419:
[00:12:28] <ronnoc> I think it is worth asking here if Muon Discover should even be capable of a system update? After all, there is Muon Updater specifically for that purpose, and Muon Package Manager can handle this task as well...
[00:12:39] <ronnoc> OTOH if we compare MD to, say, Android Play Store, the Play store will show a list of apps that can be updated along with a summary of changes. Perhaps MD could have a separate tab showing packages that can (and in theory should) be upgraded, along with a button to refresh the cache and do so. But this probably shouldn't be part of the main Discover UI <tab?>.
[00:12:44] <ronnoc> thoughts?
[00:19:19] <ronnoc> BTW this functionality would also potentially take care of Bug 331101 as well

That aside, if we were going to file a bug against the UI and lack of feedback, what do you guys think of a separate update / upgrade tab in Discover that would be separate from the main page <or tab>? This would free up the separate update tab to provide more feedback on potential problems, along with maybe a progress bar for the download, etc. Some ideas:

A terminal viewport as Teunis suggests would be a major step in in the right direction. I would also like to see a command set for fixing these errors. Removing the lock files and running dpkg -a --configure wouldn't be overwhelming add-ons IMO. The ultimate functionality I envision would be a pop-up warning message describing the error with a "Fix It" button available.

I like the "Fix It" button idea. Perhaps we could tail the terminal for errors and report them in the GUI tab as a translated (into more layman english) user-feedback message or messages, along with a "Fix It" button that would run a series of APT commends in the background via a script. If all else fails (after running apt-get-update, apt-get-dist-upgrade, apt-get -f install, etc. etc.) we could either instruct the user to a help page and / or provide a .txt file report to the dev team.

The only drawback I could see from this would be those rare issues of cluster-f*** where someone has added untrusted PPA's left and right that led to their system's borking. Ideas / thoughts?