What are the Implications of Kubuntu with Wayland and Ubuntu with Mir

[Buddlespit]

I think you know my meaning. While Android uses the Linux kernel, no one calls it a Linux distribution. In the same way, Canonical seems on a path to move Ubuntu away from being a Linux distribution and instead something that simply uses the Linux kernel.

It wasn't a flip answer (or question). Maybe I'm one of those few people that see things differently. I've always thought of Android as Linux, just because it uses a stripped down Ubuntu 3.0 kernel. I don't think Ubuntu will ever stop being "Linux", but I also see them as going down the path of ancient Suse, Mandrake and any other distros that thought they could sell cd's and dvd's. And it might work. I wish them the best. I hope they can do it.

I, on the other hand, can make my desktop work just as well, and look exactly the same, using Debian, Fedora, openSuse, ect all. I really, REALLY, like Kubuntu. It's very easy to use. It's very easy to find what I want to run. It's very easy to "Google fix". But I could go to a different distro very easily, as could most people, without loosing everything I have.

Now, if Canonical starts heading the way of Apple and Microsoft, they would have to do the same thing Apple did and fork the kernel and maul it until it's unrecognisable as something Tovald built. At that point, I believe it would stop being Linux.

Sorry for the rambling. I haven't finished my first cup o' coffee yet, and I think my wife tried to poison me last night...

[sithlord48]

mac os has never been linux it has never used the Linux kernel... its used a modified BSD kernel from the XNU os nEXT was using. when jobs came back to apple they bought the os and they hybread kernel. more info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU

[GreyGeek]

.... In the same way, Canonical seems on a path to move Ubuntu away from being a Linux distribution and instead something that simply uses the Linux kernel.

That's my view on Canonical's actions as well. Shuttlesworth is trying to build Canonical as a brand name. He's even leaving the word "Ubuntu" behind. When he set up 12.04 to be a 5 year LTS, dropped Kubuntu and his other stepchildren and moved to Unity on tablets and phones it was obvious what his marketing plan was going to be. He hoped to make an entry into the smartphone market but it doesn't appear to have worked out that way. Even his crowd funding failed, which means he isn't carrying as much weight in the Linux community as he once did.

I will be interested in reading what he claims will be the support life for the next LTS release. IF it is not for another five years, but stops at 2017, or isn't listed as an LTS, then I suspect that Feb of 2017 will spell the end of Canonica and Shuttlesworth's experiment with Linux.

As far as Linux and most distros are concerned, even now it is as if Canonical doesn't exist, save for folks basing off of it. But, as it diverges farther from being a PC or even notebook OS and become merely a tablet or smartphone OS, it will be more and more difficult for Kubuntu and the other disinherited children to continue to base of of Ubuntu's core. So, IMO, the sooner Kubuntu moves to a debian base the better it will be. One certainly doesn't want to been in the situation where Shuttlesworth suddenly turns off the servers and leaves spin offs high and dry.

[sithlord48]

@ greygeek i completely agree with rebasing on debian. its gonna be quite a bit of work but its better to do it now then when the servers are shut off on us.

[claydoh]

[ramble]

I am waiting for one or the other to actually have a running desktop somewhere before I decide to stay or go. I am not convinced that Wayland will have anything truly end-user friendly any sooner than Mir will, but the "competition" hopefully will make things happen faster.

We forget that basically the ONE (non-kernel) part of Linux that has never had alternative choices is xorg. This is something new to everyone. I wonder if this somehow scares people.
A worry I have is the sheer outright hatred and bloody vitriol directed at Canonical over this. It is so extreme that I wonder why this is so. Why are so many worried about it if it is not as good? I understand the anti-Ubuntu thing quite well, as it has existed as long as there has been an Ubuntu. I can be considered to have been one of those anti-borg types back in the day, but this endless kicking and biting and yelling is exactly the same as what happens when US Republicans or Democrats get together and begin shouting at the other side, screaming about total fabrications, misrepresentations, stereotypes, outright lies, irrelevancies, and other crap. All to no effect on any outcome whatsoever. All this bovine excrement just makes me feel that it is all a smokescreen for something else (just like in politics), but what about I don't know. I wonder if the slowly evolving irrelevancy of the PC has something to do with the atmosphere.

What I do know, is that I am but a small fish in a nice small, warm pond that is connected to a big lake via a short stream. It is a pretty pond, calm and peaceful and quiet, but yet close to things. I do not want to be a tiny fish in a big, cold, wild lake, part of one of the many schools of blue minnows.

[/ramble]

[MoonRise]

[ramble]

I am waiting for one or the other to actually have a running desktop somewhere before I decide to stay or go. I am not convinced that Wayland will have anything truly end-user friendly any sooner than Mir will, but the "competition" hopefully will make things happen faster.

We forget that basically the ONE (non-kernel) part of Linux that has never had alternative choices is xorg. This is something new to everyone. I wonder if this somehow scares people.
A worry I have is the sheer outright hatred and bloody vitriol directed at Canonical over this. It is so extreme that I wonder why this is so. Why are so many worried about it if it is not as good? I understand the anti-Ubuntu thing quite well, as it has existed as long as there has been an Ubuntu. I can be considered to have been one of those anti-borg types back in the day, but this endless kicking and biting and yelling is exactly the same as what happens when US Republicans or Democrats get together and begin shouting at the other side, screaming about total fabrications, misrepresentations, stereotypes, outright lies, irrelevancies, and other crap. All to no effect on any outcome whatsoever. All this bovine excrement just makes me feel that it is all a smokescreen for something else (just like in politics), but what about I don't know. I wonder if the slowly evolving irrelevancy of the PC has something to do with the atmosphere.

What I do know, is that I am but a small fish in a nice small, warm pond that is connected to a big lake via a short stream. It is a pretty pond, calm and peaceful and quiet, but yet close to things. I do not want to be a tiny fish in a big, cold, wild lake, part of one of the many schools of blue minnows.

[/ramble]

I agree with what you said. Kind of how I see it.

[verndog]

[ramble]

...

[/ramble]

Great post, but the ramble part you should have left off. Most of the anti-Ubuntu-Canonical reads are rambling, your was worth reading.
Mir/Wayland we know very little about. Once its out in the wild then we can second guess the products. Right now its just hyperbole.

[bsniadajewski]

Great post, but the ramble part you should have left off. Most of the anti-Ubuntu-Canonical reads are rambling, your was worth reading.
Mir/Wayland we know very little about. Once its out in the wild then we can second guess the products. Right now its just hyperbole.

Yes, It's best to just wait and see (and try 'em out) and then make opinions about them (Wayland and Mir, of course).

[kubicle]

We forget that basically the ONE (non-kernel) part of Linux that has never had alternative choices is xorg. This is something new to everyone.

Then people have really short memories, xfree86 vs. xorg.

A worry I have is the sheer outright hatred and bloody vitriol directed at Canonical over this. It is so extreme that I wonder why this is so.

Let's not forget that Canonical actually started that by spreading fud on wayland when they introduced mir.

I won't touch the technicals (much), I'll just say that Canonical claiming that an unstable API is better than a stable one is just plain idiotic. Yes, having a stable API takes longer and more work to develop (because you have to actually think and plan ahead)...if an unstable API was a shortcut to just as good a product, there would be no stable APIs anywhere. Looking at Mir changelogs nets you a lot of facepalm moments ("use the API we have, not the one we have documented").

My main gripe with MIr is not technical, however. Canonical's CLA will make sure that Mir will stay a Canonical/Ubuntu solution only...none of the big players on the linux ecosystem are going to touch it...ever. And I'm not interested in running a one distro solution, even if it were just as good as the competition (it won't be any better, I can assure you), or even if I could get it sooner than the competition.

I, of course, have no objections to people who wish to use mir (and hope it will work well)...that's certainly understandable. If Ubuntu is the only distro you use (and really care for), mir can be a solution for you. But please understand that the "Canonical vs. Everyone Else" situation was caused by real and valid reasons, and most of it is Canonical's own doing.

[claydoh]

Then people have really short memories, xfree86 vs. xorg.

Not really the same thing at all, as xorg is a fork of xfree86 due to the latter's license change. Upstart and systemd might be a better analogy as they were developed somewhat concurrently.


Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 4

[kubicle]

Not really the same thing at all, as xorg is a fork of xfree86 due to the latter's license change. Upstart and systemd might be a better analogy as they were developed somewhat concurrently.

Umm...I didn't actually say that the situation was completely analogous :P, but you said that xorg has never had competition...and that isn't really true. Xorg and xfree86 coexisted for a good while with slightly different feature sets. Xorg eventually dominated (mainly because of the licensing)...but that doesn't mean there was no competition.

[oshunluvr]

[SteveRiley]

My main gripe with MIr is not technical, however. Canonical's CLA will make sure that Mir will stay a Canonical/Ubuntu solution only...none of the big players on the linux ecosystem are going to touch it...ever.

This, more than anything else, is reason so many individuals in the Ubuntu community seem angry and unsure of what to do next. Contributions to Ubuntu increasingly benefit only Canonical and decreasingly benefit the rest of the Linux community.

[Rog132]

Ubuntu 13.10 Desktop Will Not Use XMir By Default

Ubuntu+1:http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=427
--> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2178119
-----> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTQ3NDQ

Ubuntu 13.10 Desktop Will Not Use XMir By Default

Posted by Michael Larabel on October 01, 2013
While the Ubuntu 13.10 desktop was expected to ship with Mir/XMir by default for supported configurations, this is no longer going to happen. Ubuntu developers conceded today that Mir/XMir isn't ready for desktop configurations when Ubuntu 13.10 ships later this month...

[whatthefunk]

Maybe Canonical is figuring out why Wayland has been in development for so long....