Adding SATA Ports?

[Xplorer4x4]

I purchased a PCI card based on Silicon Image chipset 3124. At the time, I used windows 7 x64. It worked, but made for a slightly unstable system(occasional Blue Screen of Death). For one reason or another I had done a clean Win7 x64 install. Suddenly the system refused to boot with the card installed, but if I hot plugged it, it would work. Both times I installed the proper drivers, and had made sure the card ran a non-RAID BIOS. As a Kubuntu user now, I questioned if I would have better luck. Plugged the card in, but again the system refused to boot up. In all 3 cases, my mobo bios was set to RAID. In both cases for Windows, I was using a RAID 0 config. However, for Kubuntu, I installed with it set to RAID in hopes of returning to a SSD RAID0 set up. I read somewhere it was best to install with the BIOS set to raid should I decide to install a RAID array later as one of my SSDs suffered a broken SATA port(long story). So how can I add extra SATA ports with the possibility os doing RAID later? Is my only option to invest in a good $300 RAID card and use that for RAID? Would this card be sufficient to run a RAID0 SSD Array?

Sent from my DROID2 Global

[HalationEffect]

I'm not sure why you'd run 2x SSDs in RAID-0 with a PCI card. Even an older model SSD should easily be able to saturate a SATA-1 channel, which in turn can saturate a standard PCI channel. When even 1 SSD can saturate one or more legs of the journey to the CPU and RAM, having 2 of them in a RAID-0 setup should give you no real performance increase at all.

As an example, my SATA-3 SSD is rated at 550MB/s read speed. A standard PCI bus channel can manage 133MB/s, and SATA-1 can do 150MB/s. A PCI-E 2.0 x1 slot is good for up to 500MB/s.

I think you'd need at least a PCI-E x4 (up to 2GB/s) SATA controller card (and a free PCI-E 2.0 x4 slot to plug it into) to see any performance benefit from SSDs in RAID-0.

[Xplorer4x4]

I'm not sure why you'd run 2x SSDs in RAID-0 with a PCI card. Even an older model SSD should easily be able to saturate a SATA-1 channel, which in turn can saturate a standard PCI channel. When even 1 SSD can saturate one or more legs of the journey to the CPU and RAM, having 2 of them in a RAID-0 setup should give you no real performance increase at all.

As an example, my SATA-3 SSD is rated at 550MB/s read speed. A standard PCI bus channel can manage 133MB/s, and SATA-1 can do 150MB/s. A PCI-E 2.0 x1 slot is good for up to 500MB/s.

I think you'd need at least a PCI-E x4 (up to 2GB/s) SATA controller card (and a free PCI-E 2.0 x4 slot to plug it into) to see any performance benefit from SSDs in RAID-0.

This is where I have to completely disagree because I know for a fact a 2 SSD RAID0 is faster then a single SSD. In my case, I was running 2xIntel X25-M Gen2. With 1 SSD, it maxed out in benchmarks at ~250MB/s but when I did a software RAID0(on the mobo) with them, my speeds jumped to ~500MB/s.

Plus I have seen benchmarks of SSDs with and with out RAID0. RAID0 one every time.

Of course, I am strictly referring to SATA2 in this case, but see no reason the same can not apply to SATA3.

[HalationEffect]

You seem to have missed the crux of my post: you mentioned a PCI SATA controller card, and the fact is that the PCI bus simply doesn't have the bandwidth to get maximum performance from even a single SSD, let alone 2 of them in a RAID-0 setup.

Your previous RAID-0 setup was using the motherboard's built-in SATA ports... SATA ports built onto motherboards will obviously have enough bandwidth for whichever revision of SATA that they support (i.e. they don't use the PCI bus). I'm willing to bet that the benchmarks you've seen also were not using a PCI controller.

Nowhere did I say that there's no performance gain to be had from SSDs in RAID-0 in general... only in scenarios where the data bus the drive(s) are connected to doesn't have sufficient bandwidth. SSDs in RAID-0 on a PCI controller is one such scenario.

[Xplorer4x4]

Sorry, I had just woke up and you're right, I missed your point. However, from what I see PCI-E 2.X maxes out at 500 MB/s. So figuring 2 Intel X25M Gen2 SSD's maxed out at a little over 500MB/s Read, they would not be held back much by PCI-E 2.X. Considering PCI-E 3 supports 1 GB/s, I don't see it holding back at all. Of course this assumes we are talking SATA II SSDs. I admit I have not really looked at SATA 3 SSDs yet. Maybe closer to purchase time(late October or X-Mas is my guess) I will consider them.

My original concern remains though. How is the best way to add more SATA ports while using a RAID0 SSD array(SATA 2 or SATA 3)?

[oshunluvr]

I'm somewhat confused on what you're exactly trying to accomplish. First off, I'd say your PCI SATA card has failed - thus the inability to boot any OS with it. As HalationEffect pointed out, the limits of the PCI bus make it practically useless anyway.

Are you working on the computer in your sig? If so, it has 6 SATA ports so you don't really need the card anyway unless you're actually trying to use more than 6 drives. Since you have 5 drives listed in your sig, I assume your DVD is taking the 6th spot. If you need more, I'd buy a new PCI-e card and move the DVD and your backup HD to it.

If you question is how to add additional partitions to an existing RAID0 array the answer is you can't. You must delete and re-create the array.

IMO, unless you're using the same array with windows you're much better off using linux software RAID than any mobo based RAID.

Just to throw another variable into the mix: If you use a btrfs filesystem, you can add and subtract partitions/drives at will and on the fly and gain much of the benefits of RAID performance with many more benefits of btrfs.

[Xplorer4x4]

The goal of this thread is to figure out how I can add more SATA ports while using a PCI/PCI-E based controller card with SATA ports on the card, but retain a working RAID 0 array.
My PCI card:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816124028

Info and BIOS.
http://www.siliconimage.com/products...ct.aspx?pid=27
http://www.siliconimage.com/support/...?pid=27&cat=15

I can elaborate in more detail, but the card is using base bios(non-raid). When the mobo utilizes a onboard RAID, it conflicts with the PCI cards BIOS even though the card uses a non-RAID BIOS. The conflict then makes the system hang when it tries to boot. At the time being, what you see in my sig is accurate, but yes I do have an optical drive. I rarley use the optical drive, so for now I hotswap it. Yes, this is only 6 devices, but my video card is using the second PCI-E slot which makes it hard to access the SATA ports. Why? The system will short out(on,off,on,off) when using the top PCI-E slot. Yes I realize I should fix that, and believe me I tried. One day I will revisit the problem, and try to resolve it, but I suffer pro-longed injuries from an MVA, so working on my PC is a challenge. I am not looking for sympathy so I try not to mention it. Rather pointing out tasks are easier said then done, and don;t want some arrogant jerk lecturing me on how I need to fix it,again, as I am well aware. Plus, even if I resolved that issue, I still am not able to connect a second SSD for a RAID array, or the eSATA port on the front of my case which would bring the total number of SATA connections needed up to 8. This is why I brought up running the array on a nice $300 PCI-E RAID card for consideration. oshunluvr, you back up HalationEffect saying the PCI-E bus simply does not have the bandwidth, but don't provide any specs to contradict me when I say PCI-E 2.X would barley limit a SATA 2 RAID 0 SSD array, and PCI-E 3 would not limit a SATA2 array. I don;t mean that to sound rude, but rather asking for clarification. SATA3, is another issue and I had not planned to head that route for an SSD RAID0 array, I have not done enough research to make a comment on that aspect. If I am wrong on the SATA2 aspect though, please correct me so I can see where the error is. :s

[oshunluvr]

I purchased a PCI card based on

I don't understand why I have to "back up" information readily available on the internet. You stated you bought a PCI card and Halation pointed out the limits of that interface. In your response to him, you referred to RAID0 being faster than a single drive (seems obvious) but did not address the point Halation had made about the band width of the PCI bus.

Good luck with your attempt.

[HalationEffect]

oshunluvr, you back up HalationEffect saying the PCI-E bus simply does not have the bandwidth

We are both saying that the *PCI* bus lacks the bandwidth. PCI is not the same thing as PCI-E.

PCI-E 2.X would barely limit a SATA 2 RAID 0 SSD array, and PCI-E 3 would not limit a SATA2 array

This is true. However, looking at MSI's page for your motherboard, it lists "2 PCI Express gen2 x16 slots (1 x16, 1 x8 )" and "3 PCI Express gen2 x1 slots". I'm guessing that gen2 means PCI-E v2.x, so PCI-E v3 might not be an option unless you change motherboard. Furthermore, PCI-E v3.0 is still a pretty new spec; you'll be hard pressed to find a SATA RAID card that uses it... even the first graphics card that supported v3 only became available in January of this year, and graphics cards are usually the first devices to take advantage of higher speed buses.

For what you're wanting to do, I'd recommend a card with similar capabilities to this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816115094.

[Xplorer4x4]

I don't understand why I have to "back up" information readily available on the internet. You stated you bought a PCI card and Halation pointed out the limits of that interface. In your response to him, you referred to RAID0 being faster than a single drive (seems obvious) but did not address the point Halation had made about the band width of the PCI bus.

Good luck with your attempt.

I asked you to "back up" the statement because I thought you were disagreeing with my statements in regards to PCI-E. Sorry you can;t be asked to put down some basic specs when I was looking for clarification of the specs I already posted.

We are both saying that the *PCI* bus lacks the bandwidth.

PCI is not the same thing as PCI-E.

Obviously...considering I already referenced the PCI-E specs..I simply forgot about your references to PIC-E 4 and so forth.

This is true. However, looking at MSI's page for your motherboard, it lists "2 PCI Express gen2 x16 slots (1 x16, 1 x8 )" and "3 PCI Express gen2 x1 slots". I'm guessing that gen2 means PCI-E v2.x, so PCI-E v3 might not be an option unless you change motherboard. Furthermore, PCI-E v3.0 is still a pretty new spec; you'll be hard pressed to find a SATA RAID card that uses it... even the first graphics card that supported v3 only became available in January of this year, and graphics cards are usually the first devices to take advantage of higher speed buses.

For what you're wanting to do, I'd recommend a card with similar capabilities to this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816115094.

Here are the proper specs:
PCI Express 2.0 x16 = 2 ( x16, x8 )
PCI Express x1 = 3
PCI Slots = 2
I haven't looked at the mobo specs on the MSI site, but honestly, the MSI website is rather lacking in a few areas. check the details tab for a good break down:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...813130582R&Tpk

Honestly, this thread has been so side tracked with regard to PCI/PCI-E bandwidth that the original concerns have never been directly addressed at all.
1. Suggestions on trying to make this PCI card work with on board RAID(Clarification: I do not have the capability of running a RAID0 SSD array at this time, BUT my BIOS is currently operating in RAID mode ready for an array to be added at any time). However, the emphasis on this is actually pretty low for the fact I suspect it is impossible.

2. The card you linked to seems to be a reasonably priced solution if I had a mobo capable of utilizing it.

3. Buying a whole new mobo is just not an option for the time being. Maybe when I am able to purchase the card(which varies based on price), a mobo will be an option, but for now, this is not an option.

4. Ideally, I simply want to add additional SATA ports, but retain the ability to use RAID0 on the mobo. Like #1, I suspect the only way to do this will be adding a RAID controller like you linked to and add the RAID array to that.

[HalationEffect]

2. The card you linked to seems to be a reasonably priced solution if I had a mobo capable of utilizing it.

Why can't your motherboard utilise that card? Are both of your x16 slots in use?

A PCI-E x1, or x4 card can plug into a PCI-E x8 or x16 slot, and should work just fine.

(Edit) Just remembered that in one of your earlier posts you mentioned having shorting issues with one of your PCI-E x16 slots. So I guess it boils down to how difficult that is to fix. Alternatively, just get a cheap non-RAID PCI-E x1 SATA card, and move non-high-performance drives over to that, freeing up SATA ports on your motherboard.

[Xplorer4x4]

Why can't your motherboard utilise that card? Are both of your x16 slots in use?

A PCI-E x1, or PCI-E x4 card can plug into a PCI-E x8 or x16 slot, and should work just fine.

Well excluding the possibility of the short factor, I was referencing that backwards compatibility does no good in terms of bandwidth provided if the RAID array runs off this card. I hate to go back to the bandwidth issue, but if I have to run the array on the card, then of course I want to take bandwidth in consideration. Now like I said, PCI-E 2 will only hold back SATA 2 slightly which is not a big deal. However if I go SATA 3, with speeds of 550MB/s like you mentioned, that should mean read speeds of around 1GB/s which would be severely limited in this case. Again, if I am some how misunderstanding or confusing specs here, please correct me.

[HalationEffect]

Well excluding the possibility of the short factor, I was referencing that backwards compatibility does no good in terms of bandwidth provided if the RAID array runs off this card. I hate to go back to the bandwidth issue, but if I have to run the array on the card, then of course I want to take bandwidth in consideration. Now like I said, PCI-E 2 will only hold back SATA 2 slightly which is not a big deal. However if I go SATA 3, with speeds of 550MB/s like you mentioned, that should mean read speeds of around 1GB/s which would be severely limited in this case. Again, if I am some how misunderstanding or confusing specs here, please correct me.

PCI-E v2.0 gives 500MB/s per PCI-E lane. The card I suggested is an x4 card, meaning it has 4 lanes, for a total of 2GB/s bandwidth.

[Xplorer4x4]

Thanks for clarification. Can you confirm that the only option is to run the array on the card vs the mobo? I have always heard that if your going to do RAID via a card rather then the mobo, you are best of buying a ~$300 card.

[HalationEffect]

As I said a couple of posts back, one option is to just get a cheap non-RAID PCI-E x1 SATA card, and move non-high-performance drives over to that, freeing up SATA ports on your motherboard. Then do the RAID setup using the motherboard's SATA ports.

That may in fact end up being the best option... and definitely cheaper. I've heard the same advice about RAID cards, namely that only the more expensive ones are worth getting. I heard that advice some years back though, so I honestly don't know if it holds equally true today.