is kmail2 really usable ?

[LinuxRocks]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

LinuxRocks: using a local imap server seems a very good idea. Thanks a lot for the suggestion.
I'm going to investigate this.

Anytime

Do let us know how it works out for you!

Joe

[sanette]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

Ok, here are my first impressions... but my conclusion is again that kmail has to be avoided at all costs. (at least for me)

* I installed the package courier-imap (I could probably have installed Dovecot instead as suggested, but the ubuntu man page for courier-imap looked simpler. No big deal)
I followed all the instructions at
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Courier
This was really easy
By default, the mail box is stored in $HOME/user/Maildir. So it will be easy to check what is happening in this directory.

* I setup a new IMAP account in Kmail, using as server: localhost, and as credential my standard unix login/password
I must say this was really easy too. I called it "IMAP Local"

* Now I can see this new account in my kmail folder list. To test things, I copied from my standard mail box a couple of emails into the various new folders of "IMAP Local" (like Sent, Drafts, etc.), by drag-and-drop.

I can check in my home Maildir directory that the messages were indeed copied.

* Next, I fire-up thunderbird, and connect to the new IMAP account. This was more tricky: since there is a "wizard", you need to claim that your email is something like "user@localhost". After the config is made, you can change your email to whatever else.

* In thunderbird, I see the IMAP folder, and I can check that the emails that I have copied are there. Yes ! Great !

Here comes the scary part.

* Back to kmail, now I select a whole mailbox folder "test" (containing 50 messages) and drag-and-drop it into the "IMAP Local".
(This is what I want in the first place, right ?)
It seems to work: in "IMAP Local" I see the "test" folder, and it has the 50 messages.

* I check in the home Maildir directory: the ".test" folder was indeed created, but it is empty !

* I check in thunderbird: indeed the "test" folder is there but empty !

* Since I know that new kmail is doing "Windows"-like things, ie without notice, I wait for an hour, and even reboot. No luck. But now at boot time I have several pop-up complaining about IMAP errors...

* Even scarier. Reverse test: in thunderbird I do the same thing: I drag-and-drop a "test2" folder into the local IMAP folder. It works.
I can even check in the home Maildir directory that the folder is indeed copied, with all the emails. So it works.

Of course,I want to check if this new "test2" folder appears now in kmail. NO ! not at all !
I tried all I could imagine: update F5, CTRL-F5, stop-restart, even reboot. All I have is more IMAP error popups... The new folder won't appear.

EDIT: finally I could have this folder appear by deleting the account and recreating it...

Conclusion This sounds like a great idea (I still like it a lot), but with current kmail it is impossible and dangerous to try to manage IMAP folders.
And I am strongly confirmed in the impression that thunderbird is much better and reliable.

I have to say also that during these tests, kmail crashed 3 times.

For my initial goal: migrate my folders from kmail to thunderbird, I still don't know what to do...
I'll give it another try when I have the time and I'll keep you posted.

[woodsmoke]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

This has developed into a very interesting thread, for me at least.

I would ask a question.

Since Kmail "works for me woodsmoke" but all I do is penny-ante stuff and apparently others find it ok( apparently for "personal use, i.e. small stuff) , but the drag and drop of "a folder with fifty messages in it" seems to not work well, could this be an indicator of the "problem".

I) Since The original posts were about "migrating" etc., is it possible that "the moving algorighm" for messages, is not configured in some way to move "large numbers" of messages?

II) Possibly the configuration of the cache or /tmp file in some way in which a small number are moveable but the larger number is not?

In other words, since the problem "seems" to be the "number of items" could the situation be narrowed to:

a) the moving algorithm(which is a developer addressable situation)
b) the size of something like the cache/tmp file etc. which "might" be addressable by the user or may have to also be adressed by the developers?


Just questions since I'm not into all of this Linuxy stuff like your guys are.

woodsmoke

[sanette]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

My guess is that the kmail code for handling IMAP folders is simply not finished.

1. if I drag-and drop a folder into the IMAP account, the folder is created, but the mails are not copied

2. then I get pop-up errors saying that some IMAP folder or IMAP collection does not exist

3. (this is another test). If I try to simply delete an IMAP folder, kmail tells me it cannot do it.
(with thunderbird, this is possible)
Sometimes I have a popup error, sometimes it crashes.

So I would say it does not really depend on the number of messages. The issue is probably cruder that this: IMAP is not very well implemented.

ASIDE REMARK This should go to the devs, but by experience, this is very difficult to report a KDE bug: before a dev considers your problem seriously, they first want to make sure nothing comes from your config, they want bug reports by other people (I can perfectly understand this of course). But in the end time passes, and another version comes out, and the bugs are not the same... You have to report again...

[sanette]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

Now that I think of it, maybe this is more a Kubuntu issue than a KDE issue.

Maybe the kubuntu guys should refrain from including just-released KDE software:
they should have kept the old kmail (and no akonadi, for instance)

[GreyGeek]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

After using Thunderbird for years, I decided to switch to KMail. After I created the accounts and folders, I imported ("File" menu) the email from Thunderbird to KMail and then re-indexed the KMail folders (right mouse --> Properties --> Maintenance)

[lcharles]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

Do I need to delete all instances and configurations for my old Kmail before I reinstall Kmal2 and do a manual migration? (I've backed up everything from my home directory already).

[sanette]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

After using Thunderbird for years, I decided to switch to KMail. After I created the accounts and folders, I imported ("File" menu) the email from Thunderbird to KMail and then re-indexed the KMail folders (right mouse --> Properties --> Maintenance)

this is very interesting, can you explain why you switched ?

I agree that importing into kmail is quite easy, there is a very complete tool for this. And thunderbird completely lacks this tool.

[GreyGeek]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

....
this is very interesting, can you explain why you switched ?
.....

A lot of apps were made using GTK+ API. There was a move afoot to add GTK# modes (Mono) to GTK+, and de Icaza had plans to replace GTK+ with Mono in Gnome, to the point of talking directly to the kernel, bypassing libc.

I decided I needed to begin eliminating the apps on my system that were built using GTK+. However, with the collapse of Novell and de Icaza and the 100 or so Mono coders working under him being laid off, the threat of Mono diminished. Recently, Canonical announced that Mono and Mono based apps were being dropped from Ubuntu. Microsoft has essentially abandon .NET, which makes Mono an anachronism.

So, I no longer concern myself with GTK+ apps. If they fill a need and work well I'll use them, IF an equal or better Qt app is not available.

Several years ago I used to use KMail and switched to Thunderbird because it worked with with FireFox. Now, KMail is as good as Thunderbird and works well with FireFox, so I don't see a reason to change back.

[blackpaw]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

With 4.7.3 Kmail2 finally seems to be getting semi usable. I have a Gmail account I access via imap with a *large* amount of messages and it is coping with that fairly well, though I haven't tried any mass moves from folders etc - not a good idea with gmail anyway as its really tags rather than folders.

I didn't even try the migration tool and I found the Account Wizard seemed to create a setup that kept generating heaps of spurious imap flag errors. When i deleted that and just created the account manually it was fine, even though it appeared identical to the previous one.

So avoid the Migration and Account wizards like the plague.

Search is broken - it misses heaps and returns messages that don't match. Searches on status (such as unread) return nonsense results that never change.


Never-less the UI and kde integration and Kontact itself were good enough that I could have overlooked that, but ... mail send stopped working. It *was* working just fine but one day messages just started piling up in the outbox and wouldn't send - all silent, no errors, no logs no nothing to help debug the problem. I recreated the sending account from scratch, but no difference. I posted on the pim dev list, just to ask for how to activate log or debug info so I could track it down without wasting their time - not interested, no one could be bothered to reply.

So I'd have to say - avoid kmail2 like the plague, its just lurches from one broken state to the next and for something as important as email I need something that *works* I could care less about integration with nepomuk etc, which btw, after how many years? I have yet to find any real world use for.

I think the kmail devs have fallen victim to the classic "rewrite from scratch" trap and bitten off way more than they can chew. After all these years, kmail is still not usable for real work, one has to wonder if the project is close to dead.

[GreyGeek]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

.....
I think the kmail devs have fallen victim to the classic "rewrite from scratch" trap and bitten off way more than they can chew. After all these years, kmail is still not usable for real work, one has to wonder if the project is close to dead.

I don't know what your definition of "real work" is, but my work is as real as anyone else and I find that KMail is definately useful. You don't have to wonder if KMail is dead. All you have to check is the commit logs for the project. Considering the harshness of your criticism, you do know how to do that, don't you? If not, here is a hint, and another one. Rather than rant about software in forums and blogs, and be part of the problem, how about being part of the solution by posting your putative bugs and suggestions to the KDE bug tracking system.

My own experience, as I wrote, is the KMail is very adequate for managing my email accounts, and I found no difficulty with the import wizard, or doing the other things that I want to do with KMail. I am using KMail 1.13.5 on Kubuntu 10.04 fully updated. KMail is quick and responsive, and I don't recall it ever crashing, so it appears that a lot may depend on your environment and hardware. IOW, YMMV.

KMail devs haven't "fallen victim" to any trap. When Trolltech created Qt4 from scratch instead of patching (kludging) Qt3, it was a SIGNIFICANT improvement. I can say that from experience because I used both the Qt3 and Qt4 APIs to write apps at work. I was on the verge of abandoning Qt3 because of its quirky designer, which was like developing while wearing heavy gloves and handcuffs while typing on the keyboard, to say nothing of having to "include" libraries and objects by setting text boxes and combos in the designer. The release of the Qt4 and its development paradigm, which was a return to the classic model, was a breath of fresh air. Qt4 is, with QtCreator, is the most powerful GUI RAD tool available for the various platforms.

When Trolltech announced that Qt3 was on life support only, and new features would only be added to Qt4, that spelled the end for KDE 3.5 and its Qt3 dependent apps. Just like Trolltech, the KDE dev crew does not have the man power or resources to sustain full development on BOTH Qt3 and Qt4 at the same time. So, since KDE3 was soon to be an island by itself, the KDE developers began the redesign of KDE to create KDE4. The results, despite the criticizes of naysayers and faux users, has been WONDERFUL! Even Microsoft has resorted to lifting look and feel from KDE4!

[sanette]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

I am using KMail 1.13.5 on Kubuntu 10.04 fully updated. KMail is quick and responsive, and I don't recall it ever crashing, so it appears that a lot may depend on your environment and hardware.

GreyGeek, this is the whole point. We are talking about "kmail2", which appeared in kubuntu 11.10.
I, too, was satisfied with kmail in 10.04.
(this forum section is for 11.10)

Try to install 11.10, I suspect you might change your opinion.

[sanette]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

Search is broken - it misses heaps and returns messages that don't match. Searches on status (such as unread) return nonsense results that never change.

So I'm not the only one with search problems.

Never-less the UI and kde integration and Kontact itself were good enough that I could have overlooked that

I agree, UI is very nice.

, but ... mail send stopped working. It *was* working just fine but one day messages just started piling up in the outbox and wouldn't send - all silent, no errors, no logs no nothing to help debug the problem. I recreated the sending account from scratch, but no difference. I posted on the pim dev list, just to ask for how to activate log or debug info so I could track it down without wasting their time - not interested, no one could be bothered to reply.

Oh yes, I had exactly the same problem. Emails just won't be sent !
I found the solution in some forum (don't remember which one):
install akonadiconsole
then look for akonadi_maildispatcher_agent
and by right-clicking on it, put it online again...

Then sending mails should work again.

I know this is stupid. I don't know what triggered this bug either.

[sanette]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

Even Microsoft has resorted to lifting look and feel from KDE4!

I think we all agree that KDE4's look and feel is great. Otherwise we wouldn't be using Kubuntu, I guess.

[Snowhog]

Re: is kmail2 really usable ?

I've been using the newest kmail since I installed 11.10 back on September 24 (Kubuntu 11.10 (Daily Build 21-Sep-2011)). It was a fresh installation, so I had no earlier version of kmail, and so, didn't experience the migration problem others experience when upgrading to 11.10 and having pre-kmail2 installed. That said, I'm perfectly happy with the new kmail. The one issue I have with it is it's inability to search my contacts when composing a new email and typing in the email address. Currently, it only searches 'recent addresses', which is annoying. I have to click on Select... and pick the address I want to use (when it isn't already in the 'recent address' cache).