kpackagekit

[cloudslayer]

I've just done a clean install, and am quite impressed with some of the new improvements of this shiny and new distro.

Sadly, there is one thing that is driving me mad: the Muon package manager (it looks nice, but it refuses to help me find the applications I'm looking for (as the QuickAccess and Lancelot plasmoids are apparently not installed by default and they I cannot find them in muon) and it does not show any progress when it is installing stuff (just refusing to close).

So, I tried to replace it with the good old kpackagekit that I had gotten used to over the last few kubuntu versions, but it did not appear in muon's application list, and trying to install it from the command line does not appear to work either (I'll post the error I get there once Muon finishes installing the packages it's currently installing, which could be whenever as it does not display its progress...)

Does anyone know how I can get kpackagekit to install? If that is impossible, does anyone know how I can get Muon to display its progress during installs, and how I can make it search for stuff that is probably hidden in the description of packages?

[cloudslayer]

Re: kpackagekit

Ah. Didn't know the name had changed... Thank you very much...

[Penguinclaw]

Re: kpackagekit

Strange, I just done a search for kpackagekit and it was there as expected. Personally I always go for Synaptic thats what i@m used to, it's powerful and doesn't really change too much.

[tomcloyd]

Re: kpackagekit

I agree. If you want your package updates to just work, Synaptic does it. Muon? For me it hangs half the time or more. The new (with 11.10) Muon? - the @#$$% interface offers me NO way to check for updates. Unbelievable. This is what everyone's getting so excited about? Jeeez.

As for Aper, I just tried to use it, and it's a mess. I install a number of "unverified" packages, and some stuff from a number of PPAs, and Aper asked for each bloody one if I really wanted to so the install. I got tired of clicking the "yes" button, bombed it off, loaded Synaptic, and just got the job done.

I don't understand how people can take something that works (Synaptic) and improve upon it to the point that I cannot use it. Makes no sense. Synaptic works reliably. Can't ask for more, except for an end to these nonsense "improvements".

[oshunluvr]

Re: kpackagekit

spot on Tom.

[rotave]

Re: kpackagekit

I've just done a clean install, and am quite impressed with some of the new improvements of this shiny and new distro.

Sadly, there is one thing that is driving me mad: the Muon package manager (it looks nice, but it refuses to help me find the applications I'm looking for (as the QuickAccess and Lancelot plasmoids are apparently not installed by default and they I cannot find them in muon) and it does not show any progress when it is installing stuff (just refusing to close).

So, I tried to replace it with the good old kpackagekit that I had gotten used to over the last few kubuntu versions, but it did not appear in muon's application list, and trying to install it from the command line does not appear to work either (I'll post the error I get there once Muon finishes installing the packages it's currently installing, which could be whenever as it does not display its progress...)

Does anyone know how I can get kpackagekit to install? If that is impossible, does anyone know how I can get Muon to display its progress during installs, and how I can make it search for stuff that is probably hidden in the description of packages?

It sounds like you and others might be confusing Muon Software Center for Muon Package Manager. Muon Software Center only offers a limited amount of packages (i.e the most well known programs for beginners), has no real settings, and doesn't allow you to check for updates etc. Muon Package Manager is similar to Synaptic and lists all packages/software available, has similar settings to Synaptic and allows you to check for update etc. Personally I find it a lot better than Kpackagekit.

Muon Package Manager
[img width=400 height=218]http://i51.tinypic.com/r6wl79.png[/img]

Muon Software Center
[img width=400 height=218]http://i51.tinypic.com/au8nsw.png[/img]

[kubicle]

Re: kpackagekit

I still use Synaptic, but it seems Muon is closing the gap which each release...and I can definitely see myself switching to using Muon (the package manager, not the software center) in the future.

The Muon suite also comes with a few things synaptic doesn't have (muon-updater, tray notifications, simplified interface for new users...to name a few).

[cloudslayer]

Re: kpackagekit

Awesome... I didn't know there were two different applications. The package manager looks quite nice.

Thanks!

[tomcloyd]

Re: kpackagekit

OK, this is all very interesting. But here's the rub:

If you have to explain the interface, it's bad. In this new release there are any number of mystery meat "improvements". Now I get to spend today trying to figure them out. That the Muon software center and the Muon package manager are distinct is SO unobvious that it's confusing people - at least 3 of us on this forum.

Books have subtitles to tell you what the book is REALLY about. New software can have the same sort of thing, with a "learn more" link, and a "don't show this again" link. What is this called? CUSTOMER RELATIONS. PRODUCT PROMOTION. SMART BUSINESS.

Instead, the stereotype of the socially maladroit programmer-nerd continues to be perpetuated by programmers who just cannot think usefully about their users.

Oh...and...this new "Activity Manager" thinkie. What in tarnation is THAT? It doesn't seem to do any thing useful at all. And of course it doesn't give you any clues. I wonder how many man-weeks that one took? And for what?

In good part, I see this as bad male behavior. Women usually don't relate to each other this way. Sigh.

[Snowhog]

Re: kpackagekit

Not to be negative tomcloyd, but one just needs to read the release notes that are put out to learn 'what's new' on any new release.

Kubuntu 11.10

[tomcloyd]

Re: kpackagekit

A not unreasonable request, I suppose. But I've never done it before. I didn't, and don't expect to have to. Who the hell reads release notes? Programmers and "computer freaks". Your mom? You're likely the only one in your family who does. I know no one who does this.

I'm advocating for better design. We have examples of this all around us. Firefox or IEx comes out with a new version, and we get an immediate page offering to take us on a tour. They WANT to explain themselves to you.

To repeat a now-common saying in the website design world: "Don't make me think."

Like most people, I want to use tools to do work, not have the tool BE the work. This is often an overly idealistic request, especially with complex tools, I know. But my suggestion is simple, has been proven in the real world, and apparently there a lot of programmers who don't give enough of a damn to simply walk down a well trod path.

Look at the user manual for Digikam. Now there's a programmer, and team, who give a very large damn about his user. The program IS complex, and assumes a considerable degree of technical knowledge, but most of what you need is laid out very nicely in the manual. The Muon Software Center? Don't see documentation anywhere. Oh, there's a link to it, but there's nothing there. Don't tell me I have to install it. I simply should NOT have to install it. Period.

New stuff ESPECIALLY needs in situ clarity. It's just good business.

OK...off to read the release notes. That dead-in-the-water Activity Manager (I NEED this?) better serve me breakfast in bed, or it's toast... Thanks for the link.

[tomcloyd]

Re: kpackagekit

Well, THAT was bust. If there was anything at all about the Activity Manager in the release notes neither I nor my Chrome search function could find it. Sure could have been there, and probably should have been, but...

And so I went a Googling. 10 minutes into reading various blogs which merely mention the Activity Manager without actually saying anything about it, I come to "claydoh's blog of ill repute" - http://dohbuoy.wordpress.com/ - for 2011.09.23:

Next to an image of something I've never seen he writes "Here, I am using the Activity Manager widget, plasma-widget-activitymanager in your favorite package manager. I find it a great tool when playing with activities." OK. but I have NO idea what you're doing, and you're not telling...

That the only reference the browser search finds for me. I skim on down the page. Way down...to 2011--04-03 [!] , where I find "I also now can play with Desktop Activities, which despite all the attempts to describe them, are basically virtual desktops on steroids".

Virtual desktops? I need to make my world MORE complicated? Like I need a gilded lily.

Bye bye Activity Manager. I just run application programs and do work. That's about all I can handle.

[claydoh]

Re: kpackagekit

Um, note any links to KDE's website in the announcement All things plasma can be found at the KDE website. There are also direct links to various online help, tutorials in the Help center......

and btw that was my blog post from April, and concerning the KDE 4.6 of that time. It changed in 4.7. That plasma widget is now a part of KDE, and is by default on the taskbar for new installs, and can be added to the systray. my blog post wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Activities unfortunately are hard to describe. I am not a programmer by any means, and as you can read, not a very good writer, either

People seem to regularly forget that Kubuntu is a small, tiny, understaffed, minuscule, group of volunteers who barely get any support from Canonical, it really is a community based distro that mostly packages KDE, modifies it as needed for Debian/ubuntu use, things like that. While that doesn't negate any of the concerns raised, perhaps this needs to be brought up more often, might make things a bit less heated. And perhaps someone will end up joining that community by helping write that missing documentation for Muon......

[rec9140]

Re: kpackagekit

I don't understand how people can take something that works (Synaptic) and improve upon it to the point that I cannot use it. Makes no sense. Synaptic works reliably. Can't ask for more, except for an end to these nonsense "improvements".

Ding DING! DING ! Winner! Winner!

[tomcloyd]

Re: kpackagekit

OK, I well may have missed some links. In reality, I don't have time to dig deep, and don't expect to have to, unless I'm trying wander off the beaten path.

Reminding folks of the reality behind Kubuntu seems sensible. BUT...when an upgrade populates my screen with mysteries, when this does NOT have to happen, I don't like it. As I've already said, if someone bring software to the public (ESPECIALLY when there is no pressing need for it - why Muon when Synaptic, Kpackagekit, work fine?) and leave it to people to figure out how it works, that's just plain lazy/sloppy/thoughtless/asocial - well, obviously it could be any and all. I DO program, and at various times I've made available to various groups of users (not the general public) some of my work. I always document compulsively, and give links to resources - right were the question is likely to arise, AND make my contact information very visible. Why? Because I care about "customer experience". Again, this is just good customer relations.

Not doing this renders something unusable by too many people, as folks in this forum have demonstrated by expressing puzzlement about things.

It's this apparent disdain for usability issues that keeps my from recommending Kubuntu, a distro I use for hours daily, and love, to anyone but someone like myself - a person with considerable computer experience for many many years in many different environments (card decks, anyone?). If you're going to bring out something new, and its interface isn't obvious to your mother, and you don't document it in an obvious and accessible way, don't bring it out. It's not ready. OR, advertise this distro as "first cousin to Slackware" (which I understand take a CS degree to use, but I wouldn't know).

On the other hand, maybe having over usability issues a GOOD thing. Being a forever-niche distro keeps us out of the aim of malware distributors.

Yeah, I like that. OK...bring on more "mystery meat" apps and "features". In fact, let's make the next distro's default language Icelandic. That'll really discourage the Ukrainian mafia.

No, I joking. No...stop thinking about it. It wouldn't be appreciated even in Iceland, I suspect.