Converted another one...

[cavedweller]

Re: Converted another one...

Here's the thing. I'm pretty adamant on the fact that if someone wants to use a computer they need to get educated on using it or not have the right to do so on the premise that if someone wants to drive a car they need to learn to do so and get a license.

There are alot of people that shouldn't be allowed to do alot of things. We have alot of people where I work that are challenged when it comes to checking their email, or filling out, or creating a spread sheet. Some of them have a hard time reading a map, and in my department I was the only one that used the xmaps gps system for 3 years, and for the most part still am. We can live with those guys that have issues, because when it comes down to it we need for them to move steel pipe by hand. Use an 8lb sledge hammer to pound the hammer unions together to connect that pipe, and service generators.

If you use natural gas or liquid propane you can thank those kind of computer illiterate guys for making that possible for you to use. Then again they might tell you you need to be to get some education in the field of well drilling, fracturing, h2s and a dozen other things before you are allowed to cook, and heat with the products they produce or use them to power your cng vehicle if you own one.

Just saying that we all have areas we are deficient in. Someone pisses you off with their lack of computer skills, then you take the time to help them out. In the process they may teach you something in an area where you are deficient and irritating them. In the end you both learn something and are the better for it. If it is nothing more than they llearn from your experience and you learn some pacients in dealing with someone without that experience.

There off my soapbox.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Converted another one...

Something I told my classes was that we are ALL smart .... some in one thing, some in another, and a few in about everything. And, we are all dumb, some about one thing, some about another, and a few about everything.

Even so, I tried my best to seed students out of my physics and math classes before the drop & add period was over so they wouldn't waste their time and money taking a class they couldn't do well in. I told them to "find something that they both can do and can enjoy" and focus on it.

[cavedweller]

Re: Converted another one...

+1 GrayGeek

I got into messing with computers because it interested me. Built alot of them for something to do and sold them to friends. Got my Ciscos cert and did it 3 yrs as a job. Then my fun time occupier wasn't fun anymore. So I let my cert go and went to work in the oilfield. Not all that mentally stimulating, but it pays well, and gives me the time to ride my Harleys or annoy people on a forum.

[DoYouKubuntu]

Re: Converted another one...

Something I told my classes was that we are ALL smart .... some in one thing, some in another, and a few in about everything. And, we are all dumb, some about one thing, some about another, and a few about everything.

I love that.

Even so, I tried my best to seed students out of my physics and math classes before the drop & add period was over so they wouldn't waste their time and money taking a class they couldn't do well in. I told them to "find something that they both can do and can enjoy" and focus on it.

Great advice. I saw a lot of that in action as college classmates dropped various courses. I remember before starting organic chemistry, the saying was that "organic chemistry is the course that produces former pre-med students." Turned out to be true! Lots of students dropped out quickly. Ditto for calculus and other classes. Yet these were smart people...just not in math or science.

Speaking of not being good at math... My dad (father-in-law) was a math professor. Somehow the math gene skipped my husband! One of his brothers is a math teacher, the other an RN (who had to be good at math to get there). My husband, on the other hand...well, the family joke is that if he wants to add 5+6 he has to take off his shoes and socks. Somehow--and no one's quite sure how this worked--the math gene that he was supposed to get from HIS father somehow made its way to me. I love math, and I'm really good at it. (My biological father, whom I've had no contact with for years (nasty divorce) is an engineer, so I SUPPOSE I could attribute something to him, but, nah, I prefer saying I got it from my REAL dad.)

[erigais]

Re: Converted another one...

I know that many of you here support family members using Linux. That's wonderful! I wonder: did you simply install it and then depart? Or did you provide an hour or two of instruction? I'm guessing the latter. Well, the people you support are already at an advantage. When Clueless Larry walks into BustBuy and picks up his first PC -- which of course comes only with Windows -- he doesn't even get the luxury of that one hour of gentle tutoring. Plus he gets a machine that's built with much less loving care than the well-tailored Kubuntu boxes I know you all prepare for your friends and family.

OK, this little aside is probably long enough now. I am proud to be a member of KFN and honored to be part of its team of moderators. I'm not here to convert anyone! I just ask that we not let our pride swell too much.

</big-picture-section>

I have not had the chance to prepare any kubuntu or linux box for family members, my father uses it but he does without any prompting from me. My sisters did not need any tutorial or walk through to use it. They simply come over, grab my laptop, look for firefox and start doing their social networking thing. They dont know they are using linux exactly, they just notice my pc is faster and that something is different(the log in, and the start menu). My desire to convert them is because i have to routinely remove malware and bloat from their pc's because they "run too slow" or keep having things start when they start the computer(recently had to take out Symantecs live update because the add/remove didnt get rid of it and it was still popping up when the system starts.) Ive tried to get them to let me make the switch for them but unfortunately neither one wants to switch off of what they are used to.

[SteveRiley]

Re: Converted another one...

He could do this from C:\ after opening a command shell:

deltree /y c:\

Or, with a little social engineering and some lying:

format C:\

and telll him that it "will index all the files of your computer" after they agree to the format. CluessLarry will do it in an instant.

deltree: DOS 6 and Win 9x only. format: requires elevation and answering prompts, which you do mention. Still: the barrier to borkdom is higher with modern versions of Windows. And that's a good thing.

recently had to take out Symantecs live update because the add/remove didnt get rid of it and it was still popping up when the system starts.

If we ever see a highly commercialized Linux distro, one that spawns a huge base of commercial third-party tools, I predict we'll see the same problems. Commercial software development must manage the tension between tight release schedules, shifting feature lists, and constrained resources. Crappy software hits the market based on unreasonable schedules. Peter Norton didn't have to answer to shareholders so he had the luxury of creating high-quality software and releasing it only when it was ready. Symantec has to meet the expectation of shareholders, who care only about profit growth, not product quality.

[SteveRiley]

Re: Converted another one...

Purely for debate, let's modify silviucc's first paragraph. Originally:

Here's the thing. I'm pretty adamant on the fact that if someone wants to use a computer they need to get educated on using it or not have the right to do so on the premise that if someone wants to drive a car they need to learn to do so and get a license.

Now:

I'm pretty adamant on the fact that if someone wants to have a child they need to get educated about parenting techniques or not have the right to do so on the premise that if someone wants to drive a car they need to learn to do so and get a license.

Are cars, computers, and parenting all the same? Do they present equal risks to yourself and your surroundings? Do they require equivalent forms and quantities of surrendering selfish goals to benefit the commons?

[ardvark71]

Re: Converted another one...

If we ever see a highly commercialized Linux distro, one that spawns a huge base of commercial third-party tools, I predict we'll see the same problems. Commercial software development must manage the tension between tight release schedules, shifting feature lists, and constrained resources. Crappy software hits the market based on unreasonable schedules. Peter Norton didn't have to answer to shareholders so he had the luxury of creating high-quality software and releasing it only when it was ready. Symantec has to meet the expectation of shareholders, who care only about profit growth, not product quality.

Hence, one of the major problems of American capitalism that could afford to be tweaked a bit.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not a socialist or communist by any means. I'm all for capitalism...applied fairly.

Regards...

[ardvark71]

Re: Converted another one...

My sisters did not need any tutorial or walk through to use it. They simply come over, grab my laptop, look for firefox and start doing their social networking thing.

Well, that makes it really easy, doesn't it?

Regards...

[oshunluvr]

Re: Converted another one...

Are cars, computers, and parenting all the same? Do they present equal risks to yourself and your surroundings? Do they require equivalent forms and quantities of surrendering selfish goals to benefit the commons?

Slippery slope, eh Steve? IMO one of the factors you have to consider is potential damage to society. In the case of a personal computer the potential is so low as to be inconsequential. Driving is moderately dangerous and as someone who has traveled internationally extensively, wwwwaaaayyyy too many Americans have driver's licenses. Although since I live in SoCal I am also over-exposed to bad drivers as I believe we have the most of both: drivers and bad drivers. Finally, being a bad parent has by far the greatest potential negative impact on society. However, since having babies also benefits society greatly it is unconscionable to apply much restriction. All you have to do is ask the question "Who decides who can have a baby?" No sane person (et. al. Adolph Hitler) would suggest this is a solution.

<SOAPBOX>
I think the answer to all the above dilemmas is education. Which is way it is also unconscionable that the right-wing bible thumpers have all but killed off (and will soon if allowed) Planned Parenthood - the only organization dedicated to responsible parenting choices. BTW: Planned Parenthood is the only organization I donate to on a regular basis.
<END SOAPBOX>

Back to my OP and the question Steve presents: Obviously, I feel requiring others to take a computer class is silly. I'm an adult and I am perfectly capable of telling someone "No" when they ask for my help (even my mother) and I do not have any obligation to society or otherwise to fix others insufficient education. The people I've switched to linux have all benefited even when they were barely able to startup/shutdown and I always ask for their permission and keep a path to revert to winblows - that's what dual booting is for.

My normal modus operandi is when asked to help with virus/malware problem I say "I don't know anything about those problems, I use linux." The conversation ensues and the seed of conversion has been planted.

[oshunluvr]

Re: Converted another one...

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not a socialist or communist by any means. I'm all for capitalism...applied fairly.

That made me smile. Capitalism by pure definition is unfair, which is why socialism and communism exist. As in all things in the world "All things in moderation," political systems too. Just my opinion of course...

[GreyGeek]

Re: Converted another one...

....
If we ever see a highly commercialized Linux distro, one that spawns a huge base of commercial third-party tools, I predict we'll see the same problems. ....

In the Ying/Yang of Linux the counter balance to a highly commercialized Linux distro developing the same problems as Windows has is the large number of distros which would immediately capitalize on the leader's short-comings. This is an advantage the Windows ecosystem can not take advantage of because there is only one source for Windows and the source is proprietary.

PCLinuxOS was riding #1 on the page hit rankings at DistroWatch for over a year. Then, a hurricane hit Huston, TX, and drove TexStar out of town and away from his distro for almost as long. The result was that without his leadership the quality of the distro suffered, and personalities in ecosystem began jockeying for turf and dominance. I left for Mandriva. Mandriva was highly commercialized and beset with such problems, showing up mostly in delays in fixing problems, or updating to newer technology, which led me to try Kubuntu. Thankfully.

While Shuttlesworth is trying his hardest to turn Ubuntu into a paying proposition, and is meeting with only marginal success for a variety of reasons, many not in his control, Ubuntu and Kubuntu are doing nicely. Commercial third party apps are appearing in increasing numbers. In times past many sites would offer only Windows or OSX versions, now they include Linux offerings.

One feature that makes Windows so susceptible to malware are its ActiveX controls. IF and WHEN a Linux desktop adds controls that behave in the same way it will experience the same problems. But, as long as I have plenty of Linux distros to choose from, and Linux does not go away from the GPL and locks down the system, I will have nothing to worry about for the vast majority of threats. Indeed, I have not sustained a single infection on any Linux distro I have run, including Kubuntu, over the last 14 years I have been using Linux. To that end I never download or install binaries from unknown/trusted sources, and I maintain chkrootkit and rkhunter in a cron script that checks my system every day and would post an email with any threat notice. Firewalls and ports that do not respond to ACK requests completes the armor.

[silviucc]

Re: Converted another one...

Actually, I do think that there should be rules for people that want to have kids. They already have rules in place for people that want to adopt a child. Shouldn't someone that wishes to have children abide by the same rules that apply to someone that wants to adopt children ?

My view on this is biased by what I see happening in the country where I live.

The current government has managed to further destabilise what was already under-financed, education. They managed it by reducing the teachers' paycheck by at least 25% along with other categories of people which are employed by the state. This will have terrible, horrible consequences on education. Already I see the effects of bad education that happened in the years before. On a forum that caters to gamers, nerds and youth in my country you cannot imagine the horrible spelling, the poor ways people express themselves because they actually lack the ability to wield words properly.

Stupid people are easy to manipulate. People that do not receive proper education are still stupid, even if its not related directly to their ability to learn things. There is no one that can teach them properly. They will become a mass for the politicians/governments to manipulate and do their bidding. Modern day slavery...

In my opinion, people that do not meet the requirements set in place by law to adopt children and selfishly bring one into the world are committing a crime against their child. They hamper his ability to become educated and free from the get go.

Yes, the child might get lucky and get educated properly. but what happens to the other children brought into the world under the same conditions? Do they all get lucky ?

[ardvark71]

Re: Converted another one...

Capitalism by pure definition is unfair, which is why socialism and communism exist.

Hi...

I think someone who actually lived in Russia during the Soviet era (especially during Stalin's reign) or any of the eastern European countries under Soviet occupation or dominance between the late 1940's up until the early 1990's would have something to say about that.

If the czar's system of government and economics before 1917 was harsh and unfair, the bolshevik's solution (and eventual application) to it was equally, if not more, so.

Regards...

[oshunluvr]

Re: Converted another one...

Capitalism by pure definition is unfair, which is why socialism and communism exist.

Hi...

I think someone who actually lived in Russia during the Soviet era (especially during Stalin's reign) or any of the eastern European countries under Soviet occupation or dominance between the late 1940's up until the early 1990's would have something to say about that.

If the czar's system of government and economics before 1917 was harsh and unfair, the bolshevik's solution (and eventual application) to it was equally, if not more, so.

Regards...

I totally agree - that's why I'm of the opinion the true best system would be a blend of all...