I absolutely love KDE. Sure, it's apps could use some more love, but a lot of the attention seems to be going to Gnome now, which is unfortunate. My issue isn't with KDE. My issue is with *buntu. When I converted to Linux a couple years ago, it was like a dream come true. I no longer had to worry about crap-ware. I had unparalleled control of the desktop (unlike Windows which wouldn't even let you remove outlook express or windows media player without ripping out all related files throughout the computer simultaneously.) It was also easy to optimize the system for performance by removing unneeded packages and disabling things that ran in the background that weren't being used. This is no longer true. There has been a slow evolution to running more and more things in the background while not letting you disable things while not in use. I've tried removing things like akonadi, nepomuk, and ubuntu fonts and others since I have no need for them, but now, Kubuntu package management no longer allows you to remove any of them without completely eviscerating KDE. I don't use Kmail, Kaddressbook, or anything else that uses it and have already uninstalled those apps that use akonadi. I suppose I could manually rip it out, but then the system would eventually reinstall it. packagekit likes to run in the background all the time as well, even though I've disabled automatic updates and make sure it doesn't run on startup. Every time I open apper it runs and stays on (instead of the process stopping when i close apper), even after i close apper. In order to get any of these unnecessary things to turn off, i have to go into System Monitor and manually shut down each process running in the background. This must be done every time i either turn the computer on or use certain apps. Since the update, i've noticed an incredible slowdown (i even have frequent freezes which never happened before) on my computer and it's only through my diligent killing of these processes that i'm able to keep my computer at nearly the same speed and responsiveness as Kubuntu 11.04.
-
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
I agree with most of your points - too much bloatware being forced into the system for no real reason. Akonadi and nepomuk have no real purpose I can discern other than consuming CPU cycles and RAM, but I've grown tired of fighting them so I tolerate their presence. Kmail has sucked forever and google contacts does 1000% better job of managing my addressbook across all my devices than any KDE app ever will.
I don't think this is anything new - it's just getting worse. 5 years ago using PClinuxOS I tried to remove Thai language support. I don't speak Thai and don't know anyone who does, but the developer of some package must have had a Thai spouse because you had to remove KDE to remove the Thai package.
Now that I think about it, this is the primary reason I left the windows world in the first place. Too much secret crap going on in the background and no real user control.
It's really the opposite of what linux should be about, at least in my mind. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll find things moving our desired direction because the next five comments to this thread will be defending all this unwanted crap and we'll be told to "go find our own distro..."
...which I seem to do have to do every couple of years.
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
Nepomuk is so far of little use to me, so I've disabled it completely (no nepomuk processes running on my machines)...though I'd hoped there were a more simple way of accomplishing it (that doesn't involve dancing in the night holding headless chickens).Originally posted by oshunluvr
Akonadi on the other hand has grown on me lately (although the advantages only start to show when you're using more akonadi-enabled applications). Since the pim data is handled by akonadi and not the individual applications, it actually seems to save resources on my machine (akonadi takes some, but the applications are respectively lighter on resources. For example, kmail's memory footprint more than halved on my end from kmail1 to kmail2). And akonadi should be able to sync with google contacts as well. Of course, akonadi is (currently) pretty useless if you don't use kdepim applications.
libthai0 has quite a reverse depends list on kubuntu as well, there might be a reason for it, but so far it has eluded me.I don't think this is anything new - it's just getting worse. 5 years ago using PClinuxOS I tried to remove Thai language support. I don't speak Thai and don't know anyone who does, but the developer of some package must have had a Thai spouse because you had to remove KDE to remove the Thai package.
Comment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
I do not disagree with any of your dismay over the bloat being added. However, I have to boot to Windows 7 occasionally to use some equipment for which there is no linux software, and every time I do that I can see how much better linux still is.
Comment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
Thanks for the support Kubicle. Obviously, I was in a sour mood when I typed all that. I feel better now because I am reminding myself (as Reiki does as well) just how much better shape we are in because we use linux.
I am stuck using Winblows XP at work and I know for a fact I lose 1-2 of my 8 hours a day waiting for Windows to do something (don't ask me what - I can't tell what it's doing but I have a pretty spinning hourglass to watch
) and several additional hours a week updating the virus definitions and that kind of drivel. I estimate 25% productivity loss when everything is working right.
Imagine that multiplied over several hundred employees in my company. You could make a case for the real cost of windows to be many thousands of dollars a year per person. If we switched everything to linux, there would be an initial learning and adjustment phase of cost, but this cost would diminish over a very short time to virtually nil.
There's got to be a way to sell that idea to smallish companies and make living from it...Comment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
Of course you always have the option of going with another desktop environment, or compiling from source so that you have only the features you actually want. The thing here is that the Kubuntu devs are trying to target a broad market, so they're making decisions that are not necessarily in line with the desires of individual users. To turn a phrase, one man's bloat is another man's necessary feature.Originally posted by oshunluvrComment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
I agree that some people may like these things, but is it really so hard to allow advanced users to override dependency requirements without hacking, which is way beyond my ability as merely an enthusiast?Originally posted by Mountain ManComment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
Not even hacking - but creating dependencies for the sole purpose of locking down a "feature." I don't need desktop search, but it's on my machine...Comment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
Also, is there really a need to have all of these processes running in the background all the time? Even if i used them, i only want them on when i call for them. When i close the program using it, i want the process to stop running. I can't be the only one who feels that way. One of the reasons i left windows is because i noticed that microsoft and proprietary developers liked to have their processes run in the background constantly to fool the user into thinking their software is faster than it really is. When all of the software on the system does it, they whole system becomes slow, instead of just the app. Now, i'm experiencing that in linux, too.Comment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
I use a desktop and a laptop that are both nearly 10 years old. Lucid was the last Kubuntu that worked well. Each successive release added more symptoms on this aging hardware.
Not wanting to part with some of my favorite KDE apps I found that Lubuntu LXDE works great. And so far the KDE apps I care about install and function well with Lubuntu.
Some day I will get some hot new hardware and try Kubuntu again. Until then Lubuntu it is.
Old time Ken.Opinions are like rear-ends, everybody has one. Here's mine. (|)Comment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
Ken,Originally posted by lcorken
I was reading SJVN's G+ (following) and saw a comment about "Peppermint OS", which is based on Lubuntu. It is designed to be less than 512MB and run as fast as possible. It is also cloud centric. I also saw something about Unetbootin, which I had heard about but never tried. I downloaded the amd64 iso of Peppermint and unetbootin, and used the latter to install the former on an 8GB USB stick as a LiveUSB. It is absolutely the fastest LiveUSB I have every run. For a 10 year old laptop Peppermint may give you your machine back.
http://peppermintos.com/"A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”
– John F. Kennedy, February 26, 1962.Comment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
kubuntu-low-fat-settings
try that and see what you can stand to not use or have or have a pretty desktop
Actually, it can be a starting point, where one could re-enable the various startup services in system settings that you might like, and then tweak the visuals to your liking.
All that is where the bloat is, perhaps.
using that package, I can run 11.10 on my nearly 9 year old Compaq laptop (see my info below) WITH akonadi/nepomuk, tho it isn't visually pretty for my tastes.
KDE3 (release in 2002) did not run on my 1998 thinkpad (or any modern "heavy" desktop of the era), so really I am not very upset about how KDE4.7 runs on my 8+ year old hardware. That it does with some tweaks is still pretty coolAnd in all actuality, 4.7.runs with less overhead in stock form than iirc .4.4/4.5 did on it (not counting Akonadi I think, though)
Comment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
Thanks GG. I may try that. Not sure what all this cloud stuff is all about but will look into it. I tried Mint Debian XFCE which worked well but I got tired of updates breaking stuff. That's when I installed Lubuntu Ornery 11.10.
Mint is supposedly working on a Debian Fluxbox edition. If they ever get it together I may try that. Hopefully it is more reliably than the Deb-XFCE. I may decide to get used to this rolling distro break and fix philosophy. I don't know. Maybe.
Thanks. Ken.Opinions are like rear-ends, everybody has one. Here's mine. (|)Comment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
Thanks, but unfortunately, that's not exactly what i'm looking for. I've already manually optimized things hardcore. Besides, even after tried i it and rebooted, there were still couple dozen processes that ran in the background on start-up that i still had to manually kill. The problem is that they require packages as dependencies that aren't truely needed causing processes to run in the background that needlessly waste resources. The other problem is that apps like apper cause a process called packagekit (or similar) to run in the background even after i've closed it instead of killing the process after it's no longer needed.Originally posted by claydohkubuntu-low-fat-settings
try that and see what you can stand to not use or have or have a pretty desktop
Actually, it can be a starting point, where one could re-enable the various startup services in system settings that you might like, and then tweak the visuals to your liking.
All that is where the bloat is, perhaps.
using that package, I can run 11.10 on my nearly 9 year old Compaq laptop (see my info below) WITH akonadi/nepomuk, tho it isn't visually pretty for my tastes.
KDE3 (release in 2002) did not run on my 1998 thinkpad (or any modern "heavy" desktop of the era), so really I am not very upset about how KDE4.7 runs on my 8+ year old hardware. That it does with some tweaks is still pretty coolAnd in all actuality, 4.7.runs with less overhead in stock form than iirc .4.4/4.5 did on it (not counting Akonadi I think, though)Comment
-
Re: The Incredible Bloating Desktop
I'm wondering if this might be a workable approach for you, Prescience -- try building up from a minimal install rather than tearing down a full one.
- Ubuntu minimal ISO
- Package kde-workspace
- Package kde-baseapps
From browsing through Ubuntu's KDE package list and following some of the dependencies, it appears that this will be enough to get you up and running. You still might need a few more items like Jockey if you want simplified driver installation.
Comment
Comment