Things That Just Don't Make Sense

[Qqmike]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

Yes, Windows also has issues.

Many goods points here. But let's not forget the focus. Does Linux even want to be "for the masses"? Good question.

Remember, we are not normal here. Most normal people just want to turn the PC on, get on the Internet, surf, write some quick emails, chat, communicate by Skype, maybe write an occasional letter or document now and then, download some free greeting cards, look at photos of friends and family, and maybe do some of their hobby interests on the computer.

Notwithstanding the likes of Rollo May (and the Creativity Crew), most PC users don't want to face the existential anxiety and possibility of creating anything from scratch. Click-and-go, babes! It made Billy Boy rich.

So, again, do we really want all those average user-folks over here expecting push-button-click action?


My sense is that Kubuntu/Linux might need just a few better help tips or push buttons here and there; not talking about a major dummy-down overhaul. Back to the OP now.

[Greydog]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

Well,
Never mind then. Sure don't want to get into a discussion on why things don't make sense.
I think dibl may have given me as good of an answer as I'm going to get, thanks!

[blobfish]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

Hey tanderson, I hope you were not suffering this one:

fortunately it wasn't, but I had a little panic attack when I read that headline earlier.

I won't go into all the crapware Asus installs on a new machine. So called free one month trials.

that is what floors me on these new machines and asus isn't the only one.

[GreyGeek]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

Both views of Linux and Windows have been fairly presented, and the differences between what a Geek uses Linux for and what everyone else expects from it.

LinkMaster summed up Windows problems nicely. Both platforms have a paradigm of automatic updates for reasons of security and bug fixing, and while Kubuntu gives you control over IF and WHEN patches and updates should be installed, as some have noted, Windows is not so friendly. While it is "polite" and asks you, most of the time it does it anyway. It tries to be less intrusive by postponing many of them until you attempt to shutdown Windows. At that time you are told that an update is in progress and NOT to turn of the computer. I have seen that process take 30 or more minutes and I have a 10Mb/s bandwidth.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

SuSE used to have an install option where you could choose, during the install, to select a server or a desktop. Under those two options were additional choices. The desktop suboptions were, IIRC, choosing between a developer (geek) desktop and a user (non-geek) desktop. Under each options additional programs were displayed for the user to choose from during the install process. When the final installation was complete the choices made determined what was presented, although a geek could convert to any other "type" of Linux installation with little trouble.

What Kubuntu presents during the install is a sort of a "standard user" KDE desktop. The "geeks" have no trouble adding and removing the necessary packages to convert Kubuntu into what ever they want it to be.

Kubuntu has much better security than any version of Windows and has no need for anti-virus programs. All the user has to do is NOT install alien packages (packages not in the repository) and not do the following manual operations:
1) download a file or save an email attachment as a file
2) add the execute permission to the file (which are always saved as rw, initially.
3) execute the file
Lastly, maintain a good password on their main account (an never make another user's account an automatic login).

I repeated those admonitions to say this: after a person installs any version of Kubuntu, and after they get it configured like they want it and all devices work well, they could stop all updates and freeze their installation in place. From that point on they could just "use it" for two or three years as it is with little chance of experiencing crashes, breakins, etc. In other words, run it the way they ran their Win95 boxes from 1995 till they upgraded five years later to XP, except they don't have to worry about the instabilities, crashes, infections, hijackings, etc... In other words, they run a "locked down" Kubuntu.

This condition of "lock down", as a System menu option, could be activated once the user was satisfied with their installation's performance. It could only be undone by running the 2nd grub menu option.

The would

...just turn the PC on, get on the Internet, surf, write some quick emails, chat, communicate by Skype, maybe write an occasional letter or document now and then, download some free greeting cards, look at photos of friends and family, and maybe do some of their hobby interests on the computer.

IF WINE isn't part of their mix they would not have to worry about some Windows executable (exe) firing off and destroying their installation or hijacking their computer, because Linux doesn't run exe files. IF it is, about the only thing that would get destroy, if at all, would be parts of their ~/.wine structure.

So, users choosing the "lock down" option would not have to worry about updates, patches, or anything else and they wouldn't be asked to make any choices because there would be none offered. Once working, their box would continue as it is until something in it broke, they made a decision to install (never upgrade) a later version of Kubuntu, or they buy a new PC.

But, I've been around long enough to know that such an option would never be added. There are settings in the standard package managers which almost create a "locked down" version, like "preferring the installed version" for all packages, and other settings, but once a user starts messing with the package manager settings they've elevated their standing from a user to "untrained novice geek".

[de_koraco]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

I wouldn't say windows just works.

No operating system "just works". It's an Apple marketing slogan that's taken on religious connotations among users who don't feel comfortable using a different system, be it Linux, OS X, Windows, BSD, Haiku... Why they even try something else with that attitude is beyond me.

[Snowhog]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

It's 'geekish', but one way to accomplish such a 'lock down' of ones installed and working Kubuntu would be to open Software Sources and:

1) On the Kubuntu Software tab, uncheck everthing;
2) On the Other Software tab, uncheck everything;
3) On the Updates tab:
a. uncheck all four entries under Kubuntu updates
b. uncheck Check for updates

With this done, your Kubuntu will remain untouched unless the user decides to revert the steps above.

[woodsmoke]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

There is also Remastersys in case of a HD failure.
woodsmoke

[GreyGeek]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

.....
With this done, your Kubuntu will remain untouched unless the user decides to revert the steps above.

Geeezzz.... You went and did it. You just turned a bunch of users into "untrained Linux geeks".

[Snowhog]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

My father, who is running Ubuntu 10.10 and in Linux, would, and does call him self a (bit of) a newbie, finds it very frustrating to have 'others' make decisions that affect the look and feel of what he has painstakenly put together. For him, as well as (possibly) many others, knowing how to prevent that - locking down their *buntu - is merely another 'tool' in their toolbox. Knowing it's there, and how to use it, can in effect, help more 'converts' to *buntu stay happy in their setups.

[zebedeeboss]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

In case of .tar or .tgz etc. files there usually is a readme included in the package or on the website explaining how to go about installing, it's not really that much different to the challenges a computer novice would encounter on Windows or a Mac.

RANT... the above statement really got my blood boiling, here is the classic answer from the linux user who "knows" what to do. 99.99999% of the time the "Readme" files is a list on inexplicable command lines that "assume" the NEW user has read about compiling, dependencies and the "permissions" structure behind linux.

This is the single biggest reason why Linux will never be for the masses, the average "Joe" simply does not want to mess with such stuff and have to read for hours/days to work out what the "Readme" is on about.

Count to 10 backwards Zeb... 3 2 1 Deep Breath.... haaaaa that's better

That said, and having spent a while now "reading" I am advising more and more people to turn to Linux and simply stick to the programs supplied in the repositories. Then the single biggest problem they will have is to get their printer working as Printer manufacturers don't seem too inclined to provide adequate drivers for linux. Ok so there maybe one or two more, camera's phones etc etc but the same is said for windows too no camera/phone simply works when plugged in...

Linux/Windows Linux/Windows Linux/Windows the questions rolls on and on and on but in my humble opinion Windows will continue to win because the average "Joe" "oops political correctness and all that" person does not want to read and learn the gobbledegook in readme files.

Zeb...
Long term Windows user... New Linux user (aiming to be long term) - I even trashed my windows partition to make sure I never went back (Never being the word of the week atm - lol)

[Snowhog]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

That said, and having spent a while now "reading" I am advising more and more people to turn to Linux and simply stick to the programs supplied in the repositories.

Yup, good advise. I think the biggest mistake new users to Linux make, is not knowing that they should look in the provided package manager for applications they want to install. There are still many who think that they have to locate and download 'tar balls' or 'compile from source' to get what they want. They don't know about the repositories.

[ardvark71]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

That said, and having spent a while now "reading" I am advising more and more people to turn to Linux and simply stick to the programs supplied in the repositories.

Hi all...

The problem with this approach is that folks are used to being able to, under Windows, freely download a wide range of software anywhere on the net and install it with ease using MSI. Linux, at this point, cannot offer this because....

1. Files that are considered dependencies are not included with the package and if the version of the installed dependency is not the one the program needs, then the install stops right there. Occasionally, it is possible to install or upgrade a older dependency. However, I have rarely have been able to achieve success using this method. Please see here, although be assured that this in no way compares to the real hell located in the center of the Earth.

2. There is no singular installer like MSI that can install the various files in Linux with ease.

I do feel Linux has a reasonable chance of competing with Microsoft if user friendliness issues such as these were addressed along with the many bugs and glitches that seem to plague the OS, particularly with upgrades.

Regards...

[wizard10000]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

The problem with this approach is that folks are used to being able to, under Windows, freely download a wide range of software anywhere on the net and install it with ease using MSI. Linux, at this point, cannot offer this because...

Actually they can and I think zebedeeboss nailed it when he mentioned sticking to the repos until one learns pretty much how software is acquired and installed in Linux.

I'll give a shout out to a new friend of mine here who accidentally borked permissions on his home directory downloading and installing chromium from the shell instead of just snagging the copy that's in the repos, which is pretty much a pointy-clicky operation.

Now I've got a heck of a lot of respect for the guy because I'm not sure as a n00b I'd have displayed the style and grace he did when we were getting his wireless working - I'd have probably pitched his netbook across the room and reinstalled Windows on what was left of it - plus he's got killer research skills and managed to load wired and wireless modules all by himself, which impressed the hell out of me, and modprobe even makes *me* nervous sometimes

Anyway, he got chromium installed and we got his permissions fixed, so I decided not to add insult to injury by telling him he could have installed the browser with just a couple mouse clicks but I do remember wondering WTH we were doing this outside the repos.

I do have a couple of ideas, which might make some Linux users howl about choices being made for them but if Canonical is committed to a n00b-centric distribution (and I personally like the concept) then there are some things we can do.

First, embrace the concept of "install on first use". I manage the desktop side of a fairly large Windows network and for the most part software is distributed through Active Directory. User calls helpdesk for an application, his user account is placed in the correct container to receive the package and the user is told to log off and back on - then the icon appears on his desktop automagically and the software installs the first time he clicks the thing.

Canonical is already doing this with the Firefox installer.

Second, populate the user's favorites on his K menu. Put kpackagekit or muon on there with big red letters that say "this is where you get software". While we're at it, let's put a web browser, an email client, a music player, a video player, konsole and systemsettings on there. The user can always remove them if he wants.

Last, The default K menu hierarchy needs some work. Even I can't tell you what should be in the settings, utilities or system sections of the applications menu - I can tell you that out of the box even I can't remember where half this stuff is and I end up editing menus to put it where I think it should go.

IM frequently less than HO Linux has come a long way but we've still got a heck of a lot of work to do - and I understand getting unpaid developers to cooperate on much of anything is kinda like herding cats - and this is where, sadly, MS and Apple have the advantage.

[claydoh]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

actually in Unity, Ubuntu does something a little like this by having both installed and 'recommended' software listed on the thing it on its menu page (whatever it is called) which I think is also on its Software Center. It is a start. But Kubuntu isn't Ubuntu

As to pre-populating the menu with stuff, well that has the good and the bad. A Kubuntu dude created the firefox installer as both a nod to the pervasiveness and familiarity of FF as well as to accommodate both the need to keep to a 700 mb iso size and to stick to KDE's default settings as much as possible. We already have a decent default set of applications already installed. Labels could be changed, but that may involve convincing KDE or whomever to change what they call things.

"Personal Information manager" should be called what? it is a crapy label, bu what else do you call it? The menu structure is, i believe, determined by the xdg menu specifications - not specific to any one distro or DE.

What I do think might be a good idea is a simple and short First Run dialog that quickly highlights the very basics. Perhaps as part of the installer slideshow even. space limitations again.......

But I don't think that assuming everyone is dumb by default is the way to go, let Unity do that for people. Re-engineering the distro is also way out of the time and resource capabilities of our distro.

This may all be moot if and when *buntu moves to a larger iso size by default, as this would allow for things such as more language packs on the disk, a different default browser, etc and etc

[notyourbuddy]

Re: Things That Just Don't Make Sense

I'll give a shout out to a new friend of mine here who accidentally borked permissions on his home directory downloading and installing chromium from the shell instead of just snagging the copy that's in the repos, which is pretty much a pointy-clicky operation.

shoutout! w00t! *high five*

Below is my short Linux horror stories/experiences after only 4-5 days or so (excluding all the hardware woes.. networks, usb mice, etc). They seem appropriate for this discussion:

[rant]
Regarding Chromium interesting thing is I actually DID get Chromium off the repository... and yep it was a pain free very enjoyable pointy-clicky. More enjoyable than Windows even. Browsing the repository and finding apps you never heard of and trying them out with easy "install"/"uninstall" is quite relaxing I must say. Very noob friendly. The problem is every browser I grabbed off the repository (what the casual user will be using the most) were pretty bare bones and didn't work out of the box. Chromium for instance had no pre-installed flash or java etc resulting in a lot of mainstream websites not working... and while I looked I couldn't find a simple pointy-clicky way to get these plugins installed. I had to literally download .tars .bins etc and manually figure out how to install them... a lengthy process of Googling where to find the browser plugin directories, figuring out which shared libraries to copy over, and the commands required to do the copying via command console without breaking things. Very trial and error. Don't even get me started on Firefox or the default Rekonq (best looking browser I ever used but *&#$ the bugs were intolerable. Not exactly giving newbies a good first impression of Linux)

Meanwhile under Windows you often get a popup prompt and the ability via one click for them to install or at worst download a .exe that requires a very straightforward double-click and a few "i agree" check boxes then good to go.

Regarding sticking to the repository (which would have been my preferred choice. Its a very nice feature) I quickly noticed problems. Most notably... the apps on the repository were outdated. Blender was outdated badly. NetBeans better but still outdated etc. I don't even trust or use the repository anymore . I just go directly to the site, download whatever, and hopefully.. if lucky.... get an easy install. Some even had very nice GUI installs that makes me wonder... why don't they all have easy GUI installers?

And... god forbid someone has to compile source to get something he wants... I'm a very experienced programmer (Win32 API, DirectX, OpenGL, etc) so I don't particularly mind it... in fact open source is pretty cool, but...even I've run into problems compiling things due to all the dependencies that are conveniently not mentioned during installation let alone the sheer number of so-so documented dependencies in the repository. Half the time I don't know whats in the dependency I'm downloading... is there a Linux SDK equivalent to the Window's SDk that I haven't noticed? That would be nice. Anyways... I literally spent an hour compiling, recompiling, cleaning, moving, deleting trying to figure out what the deal was. The terminal never threw a relevant error... heck it was even hard to notice that it threw an error at all... most ambiguous polite error message I've seen in some time. Only after more Googling (that website is getting worn out since I've moved to Linux) did I even discover Linux was missing some obscure source dependency. Very doubtful a casual user would have a chance in hell of troubleshooting such things as they don't know what source code is, what a compiler is, let alone know what in the world to do with them.
[/rant]

That said... Linux is definitely getting easier... but getting past that initial hurdle takes a great deal of patience that I doubt many casual users are willing to put up with. I can pretty much guarantee my entire family wouldn't survive two days and they all use computers every day. First sight of a terminal would probably make them cry uncontrollably.