What are the Implications of Kubuntu with Wayland and Ubuntu with Mir

[Rog131]

If the brown stuff hits the spinny thing...

There is the 'mother' Debian.

Wheezy ~ Precise





and the more 'experimental' : aptosid (http://www.aptosid.com/) or starting Tanglu (http://tanglu.org/).

[oshunluvr]

I'm trying out Siduction 13.1 and ZevonOS Neptune 3.1.

So far, Neptune's installer script does an "improper" install to btrfs. Improper as in not using subvolumes as install targets. I tricked it into doing what I wanted through - not a very secure installer.

Comparing Siduction with Aptosid - Siduction seems a bit more ahead of Aptosid in terms of package versions, which I like. Plus, general 'net consensus (is that an oxymoron?) is the Aptosid group are unpleasant to deal with on the forum. I have a hard enough time around here biting my tongue! We';; see how the install goes.

[dibl]

Here's my main productivity machine:

don@imerabox:/$ inxi -F
System:    Host: imerabox Kernel: 3.9-6.towo-siduction-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit) 
           Desktop: KDE 4.10.4 Distro: aptosid 2011-02 Ἡμέρα - kde-lite - (201107131633)
Machine:   Mobo: ASUSTeK model: P6X58D-E version: Rev 1.xx Bios: American Megatrends version: 0602 date: 03/24/2011
CPU:       Quad core Intel Core i7 CPU 950 (-HT-MCP-) cache: 8192 KB flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx) 
           Clock Speeds: 1: 1600.00 MHz 2: 1600.00 MHz 3: 1600.00 MHz 4: 1600.00 MHz 5: 1600.00 MHz 6: 1600.00 MHz 7: 2800.00 MHz 8: 2800.00 MHz
Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA GF100 [GeForce GTX 480] X.Org: 1.12.4 driver: nvidia Resolution: 1920x1200@59.9hz 
           GLX Renderer: GeForce GTX 480/PCIe/SSE2 GLX Version: 4.3.0 NVIDIA 319.23
Audio:     Card-1: NVIDIA GF100 High Definition Audio Controller driver: snd_hda_intel 
           Card-2: Intel 82801JI (ICH10 Family) HD Audio Controller driver: snd_hda_intel 
           Card-3: Logitech QuickCam Communicate STX driver: USB Audio 
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture ver: k3.9-6.towo-siduction-amd64
Network:   Card: Marvell 88E8056 PCI-E Gigabit Ethernet Controller driver: sky2 
           IF: eth0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: 20:cf:30:5c:41:1d
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 2136.5GB (3.8% used) 1: id: /dev/sda model: OCZ size: 60.0GB 
           2: id: /dev/sdc model: KINGSTON_SS100S2 size: 16.0GB 3: id: /dev/sdb model: OCZ size: 60.0GB 
           4: id: /dev/sdd model: WDC_WD1002FAEX size: 1000.2GB 5: id: /dev/sde model: WDC_WD1002FAEX size: 1000.2GB 
Partition: ID: / size: 19G used: 14G (78%) fs: ext4 ID: /boot size: 495M used: 273M (58%) fs: ext2 
           ID: swap-1 size: 15.48GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap 
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 43.0C mobo: 35.0C gpu: 49C 
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: 1962 psu: 0 sys-1: 0 sys-2: 0 sys-3: 0 
Info:      Processes: 307 Uptime: 1 day Memory: 1495.1/5966.3MB Client: Shell (bash) inxi: 1.9.8 
don@imerabox:/$

As you see, it started life in 2011 as aptosid "Imera" and still has the hostname I originally gave it. In early 2012 I "cross-graded" it to siduction, which of course only involved the distro repos, not the Debian Sid repos. The siduction installer is a nice piece of work, but rather different from the ubiquity installer that *buntu uses, so be prepared for a couple of false starts until you get the hang of it.

Although the siduction dev team are mostly native German speakers, they all can put together a good English sentence to answer a question. They do like their IRC channel for fast support, but the time difference with the USA causes me to stick with the forum for the most part. Also, there are quite a large group of siduction users in Brazil who have a Portuguese forum.

BTW, I would be very cautious about using siduction for a "serious" (i.e. commercial or mission-critical) server, due to the lack of extensive testing of incoming sid packages. I find it a fun and educational desktop experience, and I've got two laptops and a netbook that also run great with siduction, but if I were a professional sysadmin I would not want the drama that sometimes comes up with sid.

[oshunluvr]

Sid's install also does not conform to btrfs install preferences. Being browser borne doesn't lend it to easy tinkering. I'll have to consider how to get around that.

I think there are too few good installation programs in the linux world.

[dibl]

Sid's install also does not conform to btrfs install preferences.

Not sure I understand this -- do you mean it won't let you set up a (non-/) btrfs filesystem during installation, or do you mean it won't let you install the OS on a btrfs filesystem? If you're thinking of installing the OS on a btrfs filesystem, you need to be aware of this bug which kills booting -- not fun if you're not aware of it.

[bsniadajewski]

Looks like things could get... interesting... in the coming year or two.

[oshunluvr]

Not sure I understand this -- do you mean it won't let you set up a (non-/) btrfs filesystem during installation, or do you mean it won't let you install the OS on a btrfs filesystem? If you're thinking of installing the OS on a btrfs filesystem, you need to be aware of this bug which kills booting -- not fun if you're not aware of it.

It will install on btrfs, but doesn't use subpartitioning: I.e. @ for root and @home for home like (K/U)buntu does.

[NoWorries]

Thanks Rog131, oshunluvr and others for investigating alternative deb based distributions. You have confirmed my approach to stick with Kubuntu as I strongly believe that the Kubuntu Team will do the best job they can with Blue Systems to make this a stellar distribution. As bsniadajewski says:

Looks like things could get... interesting... in the coming year or two.

I am prepared to hold tight and support this team and hope that SABDFL accommodates the other ubuntu variants and not just his own preferred Unity with Mir which is currently causing dissension.

[kubicle]

Kubuntu will be fine in the short term, and quite possibly even in the long term...so there is no cause for panic (the rats are still firmly inside the ship).

Lots can happen in a year, and there are still a multitude of ways how the "MIR thing" can pan out.

Of course it never hurts to keep an eye on other distributions (even when you're fully satisfied with your main one).

[SteveRiley]

the Kubuntu Team will do the best job they can with Blue Systems to make this a stellar distribution

A not unreasonable approach would be for Blue Systems to take a larger leadership role. Begin by consolidating the effort: why maintain both Netrunner and Kubuntu? Blue should evaluate the gains that consolidation might bring. Next, Blue should spend some money: bring an accomplished X/Wayland developer on staff. From here, it might be possible to rebase onto Debian, and create a solid, first-class KDE with all the freshness of current packages. Divorcing Kubuntu from Canonical would bring a welcome degree of stability. SA(B)DFL's whims are beginning to tire me.

[NoWorries]

Keep up the Good Work through this Difficult Period

A not unreasonable approach would be for Blue Systems to take a larger leadership role. Begin by consolidating the effort: why maintain both Netrunner and Kubuntu? Blue should evaluate the gains that consolidation might bring. Next, Blue should spend some money: bring an accomplished X/Wayland developer on staff. From here, it might be possible to rebase onto Debian, and create a solid, first-class KDE with all the freshness of current packages. Divorcing Kubuntu from Canonical would bring a welcome degree of stability. SA(B)DFL's whims are beginning to tire me.

I thought that something along the lines of this approach would eventuate. In one way I am glad that you detailed what is likely to happen. Unfortunately from your perspective, where you have previously had involvement in Ubuntu Conferences and developed friendships during this time, it will be both difficult and exciting for you to realign yourself with a different community. I hope that all these changes are not too disruptive on you and others in the Kubuntu team. I wish you well as you journey through this change in the coming year(s).

NoWorries

[SteveRiley]

Ah, my earlier post isn't a statement of direction or even a prediction. I was simply expressing what seems like a reasonable strategy. It may yet be too early for the Kubuntu team to begin making plans.

And I'm not intending to go anywhere else for the time being. Thanks for your kind words.

[Rog131]

Timetable - sort of

http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/06/18...el.html#t11:15

Riddell mgraesslin: so my current thinking is we expect kubuntu 14.04LTS to have KWin on X and for 14.10 we can see if switching to wayland is ready using packages synced from debian 11:15

mgraesslin yes

http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/06/19...el.html#t05:45

tvoss mgraesslin, hmm, that would be great as we have a working qpa implementation for Mir. Do you have some ballpark estimate for the qt5 switch? 05:45

mgraesslin when master opens up again - in a few weeks 05:46
mgraesslin we plan to have a development preview release this year 05:46
mgraesslin for Kubuntu the earliest release on Qt 5 can be 14.10, maybe 15.04 05:47
mgraesslin 14.04 will come 4.11 just like 13.10 05:47

[dibl]

As a preview, wayland packages are now flowing into Debian Sid:

root@imerabox:/# apt-cache policy wayland*
libwayland-client0-dbg:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 1.1.0-2
  Version table:
     1.1.0-2 0
        500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
        500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
libwayland-server0-dbg:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 1.1.0-2
  Version table:
     1.1.0-2 0
        500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
        500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
libwayland0:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: (none)
  Version table:
     0.85.0-2+b1 0
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
libwayland-dev:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 1.1.0-2
  Version table:
     1.1.0-2 0
        500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
        500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
libwayland-server0:
  Installed: 1.1.0-2
  Candidate: 1.1.0-2
  Version table:
 *** 1.1.0-2 0
        500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
        500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
libwayland-cursor0:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 1.1.0-2
  Version table:                                                                                                                 
     1.1.0-2 0                                                                                                                   
        500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages                                                        
        500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages                                                          
libwayland-cursor0-dbg:                                                                                                          
  Installed: (none)                                                                                                              
  Candidate: 1.1.0-2                                                                                                             
  Version table:                                                                                                                 
     1.1.0-2 0                                                                                                                   
        500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages                                                        
        500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages                                                          
libwayland-client0:                                                                                                              
  Installed: 1.1.0-2                                                                                                             
  Candidate: 1.1.0-2                                                                                                             
  Version table:                                                                                                                 
 *** 1.1.0-2 0                                                                                                                   
        500 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages                                                        
        500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ unstable/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
root@imerabox:/#

[NoWorries]

Canonical's Mir move doesn't sit well with some Linux developers

Looks like the word is getting out about SA(B)DFL's decision to develop Mir. Networkworld has an article dealing with this issue. I am patiently waiting for a revolt against Mir by the open source community.